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Audie Cornish

00:00:01

For a person who has faced death threats and harassment and has been politically ostracized from his party, Bill Gates. And not that Bill Gates, but Bill Gates of Arizona. He's surprisingly cheerful.

Bill Gates

00:00:14

Hey, guys. Great and great to meet you. Welcome to Maricopa County. Great to have.

Audie Cornish

00:00:21

Nice to meet you in person.

Audie Cornish

00:00:21

And surprisingly open.

Bill Gates

00:00:23

That's why I love doing stuff in here because, like this is it, you know, And this is the black box. We're opening the black box.

Audie Cornish

00:00:31

The black box he's talking about is the voter tabulation center in downtown Phenix. And that's where I'm talking with him today as we take The Assignment on the road.

Ambi

00:00:43

Anybody want water?

Audie Cornish

00:00:46

'This is a hub of activity. People are coming in with ballot questions right behind us. Election workers are going through training. And on election night, this place will be fortified by police, drones, rooftop snipers and more to protect the integrity of the election. And the vote counters inside. And Bill Gates, who is one of those swing state election officials who testified before Congress about being pressured to delay or to certify the 2020 count. Well, he's not running for another term. This is his last election. This is his exit interview. So I wanted to ask him, how did the 2020 vote change how election administrators do their work? How did he go from teenage founder of a young Republican club to the odd man out in Arizona's post-John McCain GOP? And what can his story tell us about the future of elections in America? I'm Audie Cornish. And this is The Assignment. This used to be a boring job and now it's not. Just like this building used to be boring. And now it's not. In Maricopa County, the 2020 election result, which Joe Biden won, has been the subject of recounts, audits, armed protesters, cyber ninjas and allegations from the Stop the Steal movement that insists ballots were harvested, stolen or fraudulent. And when all was said and done, no one found anything. But every day since, election officials here have been working to prove they're on the up and up in a building that is both transparent - the silver haired workers carry clear backpacks - and fortified by barbed wire and shatterproof glass.

Bill Gates

00:02:41

Welcome to Maricopa County tabulation center.

Audie Cornish

00:02:44

This is no joke. Like, was it always like this?

Bill Gates

00:02:47

No, not at all. I mean, I've been I showed up here probably for the first time in 2006. I used to be an Election Day lawyer for the Republican Party. So I'd come down here. It was in and out easily. And really until 2020, that's when things really changed. And we owe it to our people who work in this building to make it safe, to have the metal detectors, to have all of the bars and the badges. But it really is a sad statement on where we're at right now.

Audie Cornish

00:03:18

You spent a good part of your career doing Election integrity law. Do you look back at that work and see it as partisan?

Bill Gates

00:03:26

When I look back at the work that I did, I don't see it as parties.

Audie Cornish

00:03:30

Because 2006. The idea of election integrity is very familiar to us in the news business who hear about potential fraud irregularities. I mean, how is any of that language different from what we hear now?

Bill Gates

00:03:42

Yeah. So I would say a lot of the language is different, but I think the tactics are very different. We were out there just trying to make sure that every eligible vote was counted. We were trying to make sure that we had eyes on the process and when there were irregularities, we would go to court. We would raise questions. First, we raised questions with the elections officials and say, hey, can you get this fix?

Audie Cornish

00:04:06

None of this sounds unfamiliar to me. Yeah, you know what I mean? And I don't mean to put such a fine point on it, but I think that there are a lot of people and certainly Republicans who may not be election deniers who say there are problems here and there with elections and the media and Democrats, they sweep it under the rug or they benefit from it in some way. And I'm wondering, like how you have reckoned with that, because now people will kind of say that about you.

Bill Gates

00:04:33

Yeah. Yeah. No, that that's a fair question. So what we were doing back then was pursuing these things and going to court if we thought it was appropriate. But when the when the hearing was over, when the appeals had been exhausted, it was over. And we called up the other side. We congratulated them on their victory. Now, this is a 24 seven effort of raising questions about an election that was four years ago. That is fundamentally different in the unwillingness to say that this election is over. That is the biggest issue. The refusal to respect the peaceful transfer of power. That is a major difference from what those of us were doing in back in the 2000s.

Audie Cornish

00:05:20

Yeah, and even now, if you look at the Republican ticket, you don't have, for instance, J.D. Vance saying conclusively that Joe Biden won the election fair and square, so to speak. It's not a given that people in power now will do what you did.

Bill Gates

00:05:38

Yeah. And you know, as Republicans, we tend to sort of follow the leader, right? We respect our leaders. And that's sort of how we move forward. So when leaders in the Republican Party, elected officials now for four years have refused to accept the 2020 election results, that then bleeds into your rank and file Republicans. And that's why I would say we see now, you know, by many polls, a majority of Republicans still don't accept the 2020 results.

Audie Cornish

00:06:09

Is that what has happened for Arizona, for Maricopa County? Is that your experience, that 2020 ever came to an end?

Bill Gates

00:06:17

No, no. We are still living through 2020 almost on a daily basis. We are continually every day on social media and other places, people still raising questions about it. People putting on my social media, playing back my testimony in front of Congress in 2021 when I defended this election and saying that my testimony in Congress either demonstrated that we we ran a fraudulent election here in 2020, or that it's evidence of me lying in front of Congress.

Audie Cornish

00:06:57

Because there's also almost like an industry, so to speak, around Stop the Steal, which is kind of that movement behind Donald Trump's sort of election lie about having won the election in 2020 or it being stolen from him somehow. And I think about like that movie, 2000 Mules that's been debunked in Dinesh D'Souza movie that the allegation is that the Democratic Party is paying people to basically ballot harvest or go to ballot drop boxes. And Arizona gets really specific. And I wonder what it's been like trying to go up against all of that like propaganda, so to speak, because it's not just the candidates saying it right. Like there are businesses. There are people who are like, spend all their time doing this. Like, what's it like kind of going up against the machine of it?

Bill Gates

00:07:50

Yeah. So it's very difficult.

Audie Cornish

00:07:52

Am I making that up? Does it feel like a machine?

Bill Gates

00:07:54

No, no, it does. I mean, there is there is an industry. There's an industry now. There are people who get their living, make their living from spreading misinformation about elections. Whereas those of us who used to work on election integrity, we would get involved at the time of the election, we would do our work, and then we would go back to whatever we do. This is something unlike we've ever seen before. And here's the part that's heartbreaking to me, is the good people, my fellow Republicans, who have been fed this misinformation and they believe it. They're not bad people. They really haven't done anything wrong, but they've been fed this misinformation from people who they respect, people who they believe in. And now, you know, our folks here who run elections are people who work for Maricopa County or other levels of government. They have to deal with that.

Audie Cornish

00:08:47

In what way? Meaning how does that play out in everyday life?

Bill Gates

00:08:50

The way that it plays out in everyday life is that we spend a significant amount of time here in Maricopa County responding to this misinformation, whether it's people coming to our public meetings that come to our board of Supervisors meetings every other week. And it's the same conspiracy theories from four years ago. And you hear that if your job is to work in elections, you believe in what you do. You know that these are safe and secure.

Audie Cornish

00:09:17

So you're saying this happens still?

Bill Gates

00:09:19

Yes, This happens every other week. We have a meeting. If you want to come to it, we will have it on Wednesday and they'll be there. And they're still raising questions about 2020.

Audie Cornish

00:09:30

So even after the legal challenges, the audit, the cyber ninja audit that actually found more votes for Biden, none of these things kind of changed anyone's mind on the ground who's part of the Stop the Steal movement.

Bill Gates

00:09:43

Yeah, for people. I mean, I would like to think that our efforts in providing the truth, for example, we have a website called Just the facts stop Vote that literally go through each one of these conspiracies and present the truth. So I think with some people it's moved the needle. But yes, there are some people, others who refuse to accept the truth, refuse to accept this information, continue to breathe life into these stories. I think it's very challenging. It's corrosive to our democracy. But even just as a Republican, if we want other Republicans to get elected, is this the best use of time to try and relitigate an election from four years ago?

Audie Cornish

00:10:25

It turns out, though, in Arizona it is. Meaning there are a fair number of people who in the state party who still kind of run on this, or at least it seems to be the bar of entry to the party now. Right. Like the sort of John McCain era of the party is over and you still see candidates out there who are talking about election denialism. So how have you reckoned with that? Like, these are your friends. These are people you grew up with the last couple of years, so to speak, in this work.

Bill Gates

00:11:01

It's been very challenging. I'm very proud.

Audie Cornish

00:11:04

Like challenging, or does it suck? And I don't mean to be childish about it, but do you know what I'm saying? Like, you're a person who goes to church and like, you're a Republican who's been in Republican organizations like your whole life kind of revolves around this political identity. So what happens if you feel like people have betrayed you?

Bill Gates

00:11:23

Yeah. Well, what I can tell you is that has been the hardest part of all of it. Even worse than the death threats. Even worse than the harassment is, is that, you know, we unfortunately, in politics, we sort of expect the other side to attack us. Politics is a blood sport. You know, politics ain't beanbag. Whatever cliche you want to use, but you don't expect it from your own side. And that has been traumatic, literally traumatic for me to deal with people that I've worked on their campaigns. They've held fundraisers for me. We've worked together. And when they either attack me, say that I'm lying under oath in front of Congress, say that the election workers here in Maricopa County are deleting files, which constitutes a felony, either doing that or they're simply remaining silent while others attack us, attack our integrity. That has been incredibly challenging for me. I started the Teenage Republican Club in my high school. I was a college Republican, and like I said, I did the Election Day lawyer program for the Republican Party. So I was a team player. I always have been a team player. And you don't expect to be treated this way.

Audie Cornish

00:12:42

But how does that play out in your everyday life? I mean, does that. What is that like for you and your wife going to the grocery store? What is that like for church? Like it's been a couple of years now that you've been living this kind of ostracized existence. What has that been like?

Bill Gates

00:12:58

So I would say, I mean it there are ebbs and flows of it,of course. In 2022, when there was a lot of attention on that election as well, it was it was difficult to even go out because there was such a fever pitch. We were doing press conferences from here, this very space. And we did 16 press conferences during 2022. I mean, my wife had me wear a hat and sunglasses to go and walk the dog. She told me to stay in the car while she went in the grocery store.

Audie Cornish

00:13:28

And you have teenage daughters.

Bill Gates

00:13:30

Well, now. they're in their early 20s, but they were at the time. And to avoid going to events because I don't know how I'm going to react when I see certain people. And that was one of the one of the.

Audie Cornish

00:13:46

How you'll react.

Bill Gates

00:13:48

How I will react.

Audie Cornish

00:13:49

What was going on there.

Bill Gates

00:13:50

Because I had so much anger because this was so traumatic. And at this point, I didn't realize exactly the impact that it had on my mental health.

Audie Cornish

00:14:00

How was it coming out?

Bill Gates

00:14:01

It was coming out. Well, first of all, at home with my wife and the girls being distracted, withdrawn. And then finally, at a couple of events that I went to where I saw some of these people who I had felt had betrayed me and let me down. I had bursts of anger that were totally out of character for me. I'm always kind of a steady eddy guy. Yeah. And I mean, like, you know, yelling, like arms gesticulating. And my wife was with me at one of those. And she grabbed my arm and said, The hell are you doing? Like, who are you? You're not the man who you know, I married. And this is not really the guy that I want to retire with.

Audie Cornish

00:14:44

But it's interesting because I think, you know, we've talked on this show in the past about dealing with Internet harassment and online harassment in real life. And sometimes people think like, that wouldn't happen to me. Like if I saw the person on the street, like I would yell at them and I would swear at them and I would do X, Y, and Z. But it sounds like it doesn't actually play out that way when you try and fight back, so to speak.

Bill Gates

00:15:06

No, no, it doesn't. And I mean and I think that's that's great if some people, you know, and we all react differently to these situations. But for me, I'm someone who has been a team player, has tried to do the right thing. And here's the thing. You know, if I had been involved in some scandal or something and I had been ostracized, hey, I get it. All we did was follow the law. All we did was do our jobs, and we got treated this way. And all of these people who we've come up with remain silent. I mean, think about what that would feel like. It's a betrayal when you've been standing up to something bigger than any one of us. And to get treated this way and then to see it start to affect your mental health. I mean, you would hope that that wouldn't happen. You would hope that you could brush it off. But I think people who say they can just brush it off, I would guess maybe they're not being honest with themselves. And that's what's felt good about this for me is I have been able, because I've had people around me, because my wife encouraged me to go to therapy where I've got a good handle on how I feel about this. I've been able to open up about it and it's been really good for me, and I feel like I've been more open and honest about my feelings than I've ever been in my life. So in some ways it's been a blessing because when you have the opportunity to speak about experiences that right now thousands of people who are in elections in this country are dealing with, to be able to share that and then to have some people come up and say, hey, thanks for saying that. I've been going through the same thing. It's good to have permission to take care of myself. That's been gratifying.

Audie Cornish

00:16:57

I'm talking with Bill Gates, a maricopa County supervisor. In a minute, he'll tell us what you can expect on election night and when we'll see results out of Arizona. Stay with us. I know this is. I understand your last election. Yeah. So I guess this is our exit interview. Have you thought of leaving the job sooner? Because lots of election workers, administrators around the country have left the job. Or retired.

Bill Gates

00:17:28

Not once, not once. I was elected to this four year term by my constituents. I love this job. I love what I do every day. May not sound like it from some of the things.

Audie Cornish

00:17:40

I just want to know why you're stubborn about it. The thing was taking apart your life at the seams big.

Bill Gates

00:17:46

Because there's nothing more important I will ever work on professionally than having the opportunity to be a part of democracy. Making sure that all the eligible votes are counted in this county that I love, this county of 4.5 million people, a swing county in a swing state. You know, when you decide to run for office, hopefully you do it to make a difference. And I and my colleagues have had an incredible opportunity to make a difference by just doing our jobs, by just following the law.

Audie Cornish

00:18:20

Have you had a lot of staff turnover? We've heard from election officials that that's something people are dealing with.

Bill Gates

00:18:26

We've certainly had staff turnover. But what I would say is I've been incredibly pleased by the high numbers of people who have stayed engaged here in Maricopa County elections. And just like this election in particular, we're actually ahead of where we anticipated we would be and hiring people right now. And I think it's because people understand just how important this is and hopefully they feel supported by the team here.

Audie Cornish

00:18:53

But they know do they know what they're walking into? Meaning I can't imagine you describe this job. The way you describe it now is the way you described it in 2019. It's like it sounds like you're being a cybersecurity expert, A physical security expert. Like the training that you're doing for people. There have been so many more laws put into place around the country that affect voting access, just keeping up with it. It feels like the job has changed profoundly.

Bill Gates

00:19:21

Yeah, the job well, certainly there is a lot more attention on the job. There's more of a spotlight on the job.

Audie Cornish

00:19:27

There's no room for error.

Bill Gates

00:19:28

Yeah. Which is which is wrong.

Audie Cornish

00:19:31

I ask because, you know, my father, who's the age of, you know, some of the folks here, he traditionally has done that kind of temporary election season work.

Bill Gates

00:19:40

Well tell him thank you.

Audie Cornish

00:19:41

No, he's not doing it this time around. And I couldn't tell him. No, actually, you should, because what I saw as a reporter were like some people whose lives are just like completely destroyed because someone, somewhere decided that they crumpled up a piece of paper and that meant something. Or like, it is scarier.

Bill Gates

00:20:01

Yeah. And that makes me sad when I hear those stories, but I completely understand them. His decision was not irrational. We ask a lot when we ask people to be a part of this, but I assume he enjoyed it. I assumed he liked doing it, and that's wrong. And I hope people hear that the people who are spreading this misinformation and creating this situation, I hope they hear that story because that's the beauty of this process. The beauty of these elections is it's people. It's our mothers, it's our fathers, it's our aunts and uncles who do it. And if we make it so bad that people don't want to do it, that that leads us into a bad place. That's why we're going to keep pushing back here, and that's why we're going to continues support the people that are here.

Audie Cornish

00:20:44

Staying with that idea of what leads us into a bad place. One thing you've testified about before Congress was the idea that these extended audits or in this case what happened in Arizona, a kind of government backed but privately funded audit process are like a long term threat. Can you talk about why that is?

Bill Gates

00:21:03

Yeah. So this is a real concern. And in fact, the Arizona legislature, a couple sessions ago, they tried to create a new law where we would be required to do an automatic recount of any race, regardless of the margin, if outside entities were willing to pay for it. We pushed back on that. And fortunately, we had one Republican in the state Senate who voted against it, who kept it from becoming law. But the problem is, when you do that, there is no end to these election seasons. There's no end to the challenge. And it has real impact on the people who work in elections. It takes away bandwidth and it wears them down. And any little thing that is found, even though it may not be that that important or relevant, is used in this loop that continues to chip away at the trust that people have in our elections.

Audie Cornish

00:21:59

There is some regulation saying that if point five or less of a district, if it's close by 0.5%, that could trigger a recount. Is that statewide?

Bill Gates

00:22:08

Yes.

Audie Cornish

00:22:09

How long would that take?

Bill Gates

00:22:10

Yeah. So? Well, we. So we will likely have that here in 2024. So the way the law used to be, it was if the margin between the two candidates was one tenth of 1%, you would have a recount. Back then, we would we would rarely have them. You know, maybe every few years. Now it's a half of a percent. So, for example, the 2020 presidential election here in Arizona would have been subject to an automatic recount.

Audie Cornish

00:22:37

Because Biden won it just by point 3%.

Bill Gates

00:22:40

So if that happens again in 2024, we will have an automatic recount. And we have worked with the governor and the state legislature to make sure that we have the time to have our initial count of the ballots and that recount. And Arizona's electors will still be counted in the Electoral College. So it's something we've paid great attention to. We can handle it. We're ready for it. But we don't need these, you know, privately funded recounts, which would then be on top of what we've just been discussing.

Audie Cornish

00:23:11

I'm going to ask the question that I think everybody wants to know, which is, do you have a sense of how long it could take to count the votes here?

Bill Gates

00:23:20

Yeah. So this is this is an important question. So just like in every other jurisdiction in the country, we're not done counting votes on election night. Now, people think in a lot of other jurisdictions they completed on election night. They don't. But the races are such blowouts that the networks can call it for one candidate or the other. So if I will, I will slightly change your question and say, do we expect the networks to call, you know, close races like maybe the presidency on election night here in Arizona? Probably not. On average, it takes 10 to 13 days to count all the votes here in Maricopa County. We anticipate we'll have maybe about 95% of the votes counted and reported by Friday of election week. But often now, because we're such a you know, where swing county these races are so close that it will probably take several days. We're looking at transparency, accuracy. And then after those, then speed is way down on the list to me. I'm not concerned about speed. We want to be as quick as we can because we know that as the days go on, people.

Audie Cornish

00:24:35

Start getting anxious and the vaccuum is where misinformation comes in.

Bill Gates

00:24:39

Absolutely. But transparency and accuracy are first. We will have all of the votes counted so that we can canvass this election and send it up for certification at the state level with plenty of time.

Audie Cornish

00:24:53

What keeps you up at night?

Bill Gates

00:24:56

So what keeps me up at night is, unfortunately, the people who will spread the misinformation, who will do everything they can to weaponize small incidents that are going to happen, to continue to raise questions with our residents. I have no problem with questions. I've no problem with questions asked in good faith. But when we answer those questions, that needs to be the end of it.

Audie Cornish

00:25:22

We've had two shooting attempts on the former president's life. Do you worry about political violence?

Bill Gates

00:25:29

I do worry about political violence. I worry about the type of language that is inspiring people to engage in violence. But I implore everyone on all sides of the spectrum, come here, fight it out at the ballot box. Have your discussions. But don't cross that line into political violence.

Audie Cornish

00:25:47

But you work with those threats. I mean, how detailed do they get?

Bill Gates

00:25:51

The threats get very detailed. One in particular, this this gentleman sent me an email in 2022, and he said that he had access to people who served me food and that he would poison my food and he would use a poison so that no one would ever know. It's very concerning. And that's why I'm grateful that the Arizona attorney general prosecuted this person, because it is not just words. And it's happened to my colleagues, too.

Audie Cornish

00:26:21

What worries do you have about the generation of people coming up behind you who are going to be in these jobs? Because some of them are part of the Stop the Steal movement. There are some states, I think Michigan, Nevada, New Mexico, even Pennsylvania, where people who thought they'd be on alternative slate of electors or people are calling them fake electors for the former president. They're like back in the gig. You know, the lesson has not been the election was fine, we should go away. It's these same voices are back and some in positions of power. And like, how do you think about that?

Bill Gates

00:27:03

Yeah. So it it's. It's hard to see that for me because of the impact it has sort of on our republic, on our system moving forward. But also, as a Republican, I don't think it's good politics. I don't think that's a way for Republicans to win elections. Moving into the future, to take those sorts of approaches. And I know there are a lot of other voices in the Republican Party who feel like I do, but they're quiet. A lot of them feel intimidated. They don't want to raise their voices. They don't want to be shouted down by these folks. And that's why, you know, I'm proud when I see others who have raised their voices. But we have to do it because we have to show the way for that next generation that you're talking about.

Audie Cornish

00:27:47

Do you have any regrets about how you handled things the last couple of years?

Bill Gates

00:27:51

I really don't. I feel like we did the best that we could. There's there's not one thing that I've done, one vote that I've taken, one statement that I've made that I look back and regret it. I feel very liberated by this experience that I don't maybe earlier in my political career, I would pass my words. I don't pursed my words. I speak from my heart and it feels good.

Audie Cornish

00:28:17

What would you tell the young man who founded your teenage Republican Club?

Bill Gates

00:28:23

I would say to him, get ready.

Audie Cornish

00:28:25

Because he's in for a shock.

Bill Gates

00:28:26

Yeah, absolutely. He is in for a shock. But I will tell him also that he's got an incredible ride ahead of him and that he's going to have the opportunity to be a part of things that he never could have imagined. Things that are so important, things that are fundamental to this democracy. Like I said when I testified in front of Congress in 2021, it was my dream that maybe someday I could go to, you know, Eastern Europe and and be an election observer in a new democracy. But I never could have imagined dreamed that I would have been here fighting for democracy in my own country. So, you know, again, when you run for office, you like, what? What are you doing it for? To do something important. And I feel in a lot of ways, like the luckiest guy in the world, because I have been able to stand up for something that I believe in that is so clear to me that I'm in the right and that I'm just trying to do what these people here would want me to do, which is to stand up for them their hard work, and to stand up for this democracy.

Audie Cornish

00:29:38

Bill Gates. He represents District three on the Maricopa County Board of Supervisors. We spoke with him at the county's voter tabulation center in downtown Phenix. One more thing. While Gates is not seeking another term as supervisor, his election work isn't over. He's headed to Arizona State University, where he will lead the newly established Mechanics of Democracy Lab. Its aim to train the next generation of election administrators. The Assignment is a production of CNN Audio. If you liked this episode, please go ahead and hit that follow button. And if you loved it, do us a solid and share it. It matters. This episode was produced by Jesse Remedios, Osman Noor and Dan Bloom. Our senior producer is Matt Martinez. Our video team on the road this week. Styke Dimas, Kevin Myers, and our video editor is Cole Deines. Dan DZula is our technical director and Steve Lickteig is the executive producer of CNN Audio. We had support from Haley Thomas, Alex Mann, Asari, Robert Mathers, John Diadora, Leonie Steiner, James Andrus, Nicole Passthrough and Lisa Amaral. Special thanks, as always to Katie Henneman. And thank you for listening. I'm Audie Cornish.

The Assignment with Audie Cornish