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The US-El Salvador Deportation Deal, Explained
CNN One Thing
Apr 16, 2025
President Donald Trump and El Salvador's president Nayib Bukele have both made clear in recent days that the Maryland man who was mistakenly deported to El Salvador won’t be returned to the United States. We hear why Bukele is so eager to work with Trump on immigration issues and get a firsthand account of the notorious mega-prison Kilmar Armando Abrego Garcia is being held in.
Guest: David Culver, CNN Senior National Correspondent
Have a tip or question about the new Trump administration? Call us at 202-240-2895.
Episode Transcript
Elsy Noemi Berrios (Nats)
00:00:03
I'm not getting out...If you don't tell me, I'm not getting out.
David Rind
00:00:04
This is from March 31st. Elsy Noemi Berrios is in Westminster, Maryland, driving to work with her daughter, Karen Cruz Berrios. Federal agents approach the car and ask Noemi Barrios to step out. She refuses, asks to see a detention order. Cruz Berrio starts recording on her phone.
Elsy Noemi Berrios (Nats)
00:00:23
Give me the warrant, please.
Agent
00:00:24
I'm not giving you the warrant
David Rind
00:00:26
One agent says he doesn't need to show the warrant. Another officer then smashes through the driver's side window, opens the door, and pulls Noemi Barrios out.
Karen Cruz Berrios (Nats)
00:00:40
You guys cannot take her! Just because you guys want to!
David Rind
00:00:45
As she was taken into custody by Immigration and Customs Enforcement, you can hear Noemi Beria say, Don't worry my love, I'm okay.
Karen Cruz Berrios (Nats)
00:00:53
Mommy, no! Mommy!
David Rind
00:01:00
'Well, two weeks later, her attorneys say they still have not received evidence from the government backing up its main reason for detaining her, that she's an associate of the MS-13 gang. Her lawyers say she was here on a work authorization after a previous removal order was dismissed and she petitioned for asylum, she has no criminal record. But Noemi Berrios came to the US from El Salvador, and the family's fear is that she could end up like fellow Salvadoran, Kilmar Armando Abrego Garcia.
Priscilla Alvarez
00:01:30
The Trump administration in court filing said that they had mistakenly sent him to El Salvador, a country where he was not supposed to be deported because of fear of persecution, because of quote, administrative error.
Paula Reid
00:01:42
The Supreme Court said that the administration must quote, facilitate his return, but didn't explain exactly what that means, nor did they give the administration a deadline.
Kate Bouldan
00:01:52
All the while, that man sits in a Salvadorian prison, along with hundreds of other deportees. A notorious prison.
David Rind
00:02:00
Abrego Garcia's story has become a case study into how the Trump administration is going about its mass deportation plans and who is helping them carry it out. But the question remains, what happens when you get sent to one of the harshest prisons on earth? My guest is CNN's senior national correspondent, David Culver. He is one of the few international journalists who have been allowed inside El Salvador's Center for Terrorism Confinement. Today, he tells us what he saw. From CNN, this is One Thing. I'm David Rind.
David Rind
00:02:42
Welcome back to the podcast, David.
David Culver
00:02:44
Thank you.
David Rind
00:02:45
So you and I spoke last September about El Salvador and its transformation under President Nayib Bukele and his hardline tactics to clean up violence. And I do have to be honest, I did not expect El Salvador to be in the news as much as it has been during the early days of the Trump administration. So why is that?
David Culver
00:03:03
Yeah, I'd love to be the one to say, I called this late last year, but I didn't expect this either, David. I mean, we're talking about a tiny Central American nation that now has become essentially the backbone of President Trump's immigration policy here. And I think it comes down to just that, immigration. It's interesting. I had one Salvadoran government official tell me in a very blunt way, look, we've become the biggest importer of USD portis now and we don't even have to pay a tariff. In fact, we get $6 million a year. And that's certainly how the Salvadoran government is now looking at this. So that's.
David Rind
00:03:37
Is this the arrangement the US is paying millions of dollars to El Salvador to take in these deportees?
David Culver
00:03:43
'Exact details of the arrangement are still hard to come by, but we know it's at least $6 million that's being paid to El Salvador. We're not quite sure if that's gonna be renewed every year, but it seems to be at least lasting for the first year that some 200 plus, now nearing 300 deportees that include Venezuelans, suspected Trenderagua gang members, and suspected MS-13 gang members from El Salvador who have been sent over. And directly into Zakat. Now I should point out other deportees who aren't deemed gang members have been deported to El Salvador going back years now in previous administrations. So that's continued regularly. What's changed here is the criminal factor.
David Rind
00:04:26
'Oh yeah, and one of those people who has been sent to this prison, CECOT, is Kilmar Armando Abrego-Garcia, the Maryland father who was mistakenly deported to El Salvador. President Bukele was at the White House with President Trump on Monday. Did it seem like he had any interest in returning Garcia to the U.S.?
David Culver
00:04:44
That was a fascinating exchange to watch on Monday in the Oval Office. I mean, you had two of the individuals who consider themselves to be, and arguably are, the most powerful, not only in their countries, but perhaps even in their regions.
President Donald Trump
00:04:57
Well, thank you very much. It's an honor to have a friend of mine because we went through this together and got along very well for my entire period.
David Culver
00:05:10
President Trump arguably the most powerful in the world.
Nayib Bukele
00:05:12
We're very eager to help.
David Culver
00:05:14
President Bukele incredibly popular amongst those in his country, but also across Latin America. And I'll just take a sidestep here. I mean, I've traveled to Ecuador, Mexico, Colombia, Haiti. One person who folks in each of those countries brings up over and over is President Bukele saying, we wish he was our leader, shows you how popular, how influential and how powerful these individuals are. And yet in that moment in the Oval Office, they seem to be powerless when they were about this one case.
Kaitlan Collins
00:05:41
Do you plan to ask President Bukele to help return the man who your administration says was mistakenly deported to El Salvador?
President Donald Trump
00:05:50
Well, let me ask Pam, would you answer that question?
Pam Bondi
00:05:53
Sure
David Culver
00:05:55
Kaitlan Collins is the one who brought it up to them and said, what's going to happen here? President Trump immediately deferred to some of his cabinet members, Pam Bondi.
Pam Bondi
00:06:03
That's up to El Salvador if they want to return him. That's not up to us.
David Culver
00:06:08
Who basically said that from a legal perspective, they couldn't force El Salvador to do something that they weren't willing to do. So then, Caitlin has to. President Bukele, well, would you return him?
Kaitlan Collins
00:06:19
Can President Bukele weigh in on this? Do you plan to return him?
Nayib Bukele
00:06:22
Well, I'm supposed to have not suggested that I smuggle a terrorist into the United States, right? They totally understand that. How can I return him to the United State? It's like, I smuggled him into the United States or what do I do? Of course I'm not going to do it. It's, like, the question is preposterous. How can i smuggle the terrorist into the United states? I don't have the power to return him to the united states.
David Culver
00:06:46
And he seemed to defer again and essentially say, well, why would we smuggle somebody back over the border? He said, because he's a Salvadoran citizen and we don't have the power to do that. And I certainly won't release him in my own country. So it was a lot of deflecting and seemingly folks who said that they don't the power do anything.
Nayib Bukele
00:07:07
We just turned the murder capital of the world into the safest country in the Western Hemisphere and you want us to go back into releasing criminals so we can go back to being the murder capital. That's not going to happen.
David Culver
00:07:20
And we're not talking about sending these individuals to just any prison. We're talking about Saqqat. Now this is a fortress nestled about an hour and a half outside of San Salvador, the capital of El Salvador. And it is a place that I think now has risen to global admiration and fear all at the same time. It's perhaps now the most notorious prison in the world. And it's one that President Trump has certainly taken a huge liking to.
David Rind
00:07:45
And so you, last week, went to go see it for yourself. Can you describe what it's actually like?
David Culver
00:07:51
So that was our second time visiting. And it was the first time a U.S. News network was allowed in since deportees started to be sent to CECOT.
David Culver (Nats)
00:08:02
Okay, here we are heading back inside what is perhaps the world's most tightly controlled and controversial prison.
David Culver
00:08:10
It's equated to about seven football stadiums. So we're talking about a massive sprawling campus. Around the exterior, you have three huge rings. The outermost wall, if you will, rises some 15 meters, including three meters of electrified fencing. It's essentially a fortress that's guarded by El Salvador's military. By its police and by prison guards.
David Culver (Nats)
00:08:34
They have these seven towers all around that allows them to then be able to keep an eye on what's happening, not only within, but also on the outside. And you've got anywhere from 800 to up to 1,000 prison guards standing by each day to patrol what is essentially prisons within the prison. Because then within that complex, you've eight different structures known as sectors or modules. And it's in Sector 8 that we know the deportees have been sent.
Guard
00:09:04
No, no, we're not going to see that space.
David Culver (Nats)
00:09:06
And why can't we enter?
Guard
00:09:08
It's not considered within the route.
David Culver (Nats)
00:09:11
It's not part of the structured tour so we don't go into sector 8.
David Culver
00:00:00
'Our second visit, they didn't let us go into Sector 8. We tried several times to get a sense of what was happening inside. Instead, they took us to Sector 4, which in of itself is a significant place to go into because that's where the alleged Salvadoran gang members of MS-13 and 18th Street are being held. And that is a facility that is run in a militant-like order.
Guard
00:10:38
Good Morning.
Prisoners
00:10:38
Good Morning!
David Rind
00:10:38
Do we know if they're allowed to speak to attorneys or family members, any kind of due process while they're there?
David Culver
00:10:45
The argument is that you are granted access to your legal counsel through this virtual hearing room that they have set up and they have multiple within each sector.
David Culver (Nats)
00:10:55
This is a court hearing that's playing out right now.
David Culver
00:10:59
'You have to remember the sectors, which are like airplane hanger size and have two dozen plus jumbo cells and then within each jumbo cell, 80 to 100 inmates, the sectors are where you live. 24-7. Inmates will never leave the sector, so if they have to go do some exercise or Bible class, they get 30 minutes a day outside of their cell to do that, and then they're sent back in. If they have a medical visit, they can do that within the sector where there's a little clinic and doctors come in. If they had to have legal visits or be part of a court proceeding, they could do that through these virtual hearing rooms, which they have set up.
David Culver (Nats)
00:11:36
Is it possible people are appealing their sentences here? Is that part of the process as well.
Guard
00:11:42
Of course, in the due process anything is possible.
David Culver
00:11:43
It's unclear to me right now if the deportees are getting access to those virtual hearings. And the reason I say that is we've heard from attorneys of people like Abrego Garcia, who have said they've not been in touch with their client. And so it seems in this moment, at least, that due process is not playing out for the deportee. I gotta say, David.
David Rind
00:12:01
'I know prisons are not supposed to be all-inclusive resorts or anything like that, but this sounds especially brutal
David Culver
00:12:08
It's very harsh, and it's supposed to be that way. It's designed to be. And I think you have to put it in context as to why CECOT exists the way it does. It's rooted in the brutality that existed in El Salvador going back now decades, something you and I talked about the last time we talked about El Salvador, and that is years of civil war that were followed by gang violence and a level of violence and just horrendous brutality, David, that I think a lot of us don't know how to conceptualize. So it's for that reason that CECOT has been built and is as harsh and extreme as it is and yet has widely accepted amongst the Salvadoran population because they see this as the only way to maintain the safety and security that has finally been restored to El Salvador. That said, does it rise to the level of the deportees needing to be in that type of facility? I think that's where a lot of folks have concerns and questions.
David Rind
00:13:12
So David, who exactly are the people being held in sector four, the area of the prison that you visited?
David Culver
00:13:18
'We've talked to two different people. One was Marvin Vasquez, and he is somebody who lived in the LA area for many years. He says he killed anywhere from 20 to 30 people. And he said it in a very matter-of-fact manner. Most recently, we met another individual who is being held there. He is, as he puts it, still an active member of MS-13, so he still claims to hold that membership, even though he's sharing a bunk now with- what was once a rival gang, 18th Street gang members.
David Culver (Nats)
00:13:48
Why are you here in this prison?
Prisoner
00:13:52
For homicide.
David Culver (Nats)
00:13:56
One person, two people? How many?
Prisoner
00:14:00
More than 50.
David Culver (Nats)
00:14:01
More than 50 people?
David Culver
00:14:02
But he told me he killed more than 50 people in his time, and said it very matter of fact and in a calm way.
David Culver (Nats)
00:14:08
'He's 40 now, he said, since he was 13 years old over the time that he was. And still is, as he points out, a member of MS-13, he says he's killed more than 50 people.
David Culver
00:14:18
He lived in the D.C. Area in Virginia and Maryland. And I asked, I said, did you kill people in D. C. In Virginia, in Maryland? And he said, you have to do what you have to do to be a certified gang member. And he did it again, very calmly.
David Rind
00:14:32
So these are the kind of people that El Salvador points to as the reason for having a prison like this, the harsh conditions. But again, there's the question that you raised of whether the deportees coming from the US warrant that same treatment. But the Trump administration has also pointed to tattoos as evidence of gang affiliation as they deport people from the U.S. Is that really enough to get someone deported?
David Culver
00:14:58
When you talk to Salvadoran officials, that's certainly a big part of it. Tattoo culture was huge within the gang lifestyle, and we even spent some time in recent days speaking with local tattoo artists, and they affirm that.
Angela Angel (Tattoo artist)
00:15:13
If you are in something that is not allowed to a certain extent, at least in this country it's noticeable.
David Culver
00:15:20
They said, you would be very mindful of what tattoos you'd have on you, especially during a time when the gangs looked at that as proper affiliation, and you could only get certain tattoos for accomplishing certain things within the gang, including murder.
Angela Angel (Tattoo artist)
00:15:41
They did things that were alusive to look like they were part of those groups .
David Culver
00:15:43
And so tattoos serve a very important part of gang culture. That being the only evidence is a bit flimsy, especially when certain things like, I don't know, a crown can be misconstrued as being part of Tren de Aragua, which it may be part of, but it also can be used for something, say, Real Madrid football team. I think that's where folks are starting to look at, you have to have other sources of evidence and cooperation. Now the U.S. Argues they have that other evidence, but El Salvador, has years of it, and one man in particular, he's fascinating to speak with. He's the public security and justice minister named Gustavo Villatoro.
Gustavo Villatoro
00:16:19
They have one eight, means Barrio 18.
David Culver
00:16:24
And this is a guy who has shown me his book on gang tattoos, gang graffiti, and essentially gang language that he has decoded over 20 plus years of data and research. I mean, as he puts it, he's a data nerd when it comes to gangs and understanding them.
Gustavo Villatoro
00:16:40
We are giving support to the police in Italy, Spain and US.
David Culver
00:16:46
and so it does seem very scientific in certain ways when he references the books and he shows you his history and he says they have criminal records on basically any individual that had any criminal history in El Salvador going back decades.
David Rind
00:17:03
On this broader arrangement between the US and El Salvador, it's clear President Trump is very happy with the arrangement, so is President Bukele. Are other Latin American countries going to look at this and say, hey, we should get in on this kind of thing too?
David Culver
00:17:18
'Realize traveling across Latin America is there is a sense of admiration, respect, and I would say jealousy when it comes to President Bukele. And you hear that from officials in Ecuador, in Mexico, in Haiti even, people who say what he's accomplished, some are even skeptical of it, seemingly questioning how legitimate it is and what, if any, deals they allege he might have made with gang members. But people look at this more or less and say, this is what we want to do in our country. And I do think you're starting to see that replicated. For example, in Ecuador, we know that there's a prison that's being constructed right now under president Noboa, who just won reelection. And this is a prison that's designed similarly to CECOT. And so it's possible that should it have enough capacity, they would look for a similar deal with the U.S. We should also point out that El Salvador is looking to expand as well. In fact, when I was talking to Villatoro, You're nearing capacity, because when we were visiting CECOT late last year, we were told there were anywhere from 10,000 to 20,000 inmates within. That was a vague range that they wouldn't give a specific number for security reasons, as they said. When I went most recently, just in the past few days, they said they're neering their 40,000-person capacity. And so I asked, what happens when you go over? They said, well, we've got plans for that. And I said, does that include a second CECOT? They said, absolutely.
David Rind
00:18:43
But if the numbers keep going up and up, reaching the limits of capacity, that would lead me to believe that nobody is ever.
David Rind
00:18:52
That's certainly the slogan they like to use. Once you enter CECOT, you never leave, but in a casket. And so I think that's where I was hesitant to think that that meeting between President Bukele and President Trump would yield the release of Abrego Garcia. And I think there's two reasons for that. One is you have the U.S. That doesn't want to set a precedent here in releasing a deportee because that could open up other legal challenges for other deportees. And, or second, El Salvador has something on him. Two government officials have told me they have what they describe as further evidence incriminating Abreu Garcia. When I asked to see that evidence or see the records, because I know they have a lot of records, they said no. And his attorneys have pushed back fervently on that. They say this is fabrication, that this is a lie. But what we do know is that Villatoro is meticulous when it comes to criminal records. And I think we have this perception that El Salvador is just receiving these inmates, that they get a list sent from the U.S. And it says, okay, here's who's coming in today. This is not what's been portrayed to me. Villatoro says they are actively requesting certain deportees to be sent back to El Salvador, particularly those who are Salvadorans. And he says they will send the criminal records and are constantly doing this with U.S. Officials saying, here's who we want, put them on the manifest and send them over.
Gustavo Villatoro
00:20:08
This information allowed us to catch them when US sent a deportation flight. We checked all of them. And if we found someone who we are very sure that he is a member of any gang in El Salvador, we capture them and put in jail.
David Culver (Nats)
00:20:37
You know exactly who's coming in on those deportation flights. Yes. So did you specifically want those individuals to come back?
Gustavo Villatoro
00:20:44
Of course.
David Culver
00:20:46
Which is why in my mind, something tells me that Abrego Garcia, who may have been, as the administration considers it, to be an administrative heir, was still wanted by El Salvador for some reason. We just don't know why. And again.
David Rind
00:21:01
Abrego Garcia, an original court order years ago was that he should not be deported back to El Salvador because of threats from gangs to him and his family, but yet this is exactly where he ended up.
David Culver
00:21:13
And you have to wonder what was it exactly that he was fleeing at 16 years old? I mean, it's not uncommon to be recruited at the age of 12, in which case I think there's so much nuance here as to culpability, right? I mean can you really be blamed as a young teen or preteen even for being forced into a gang and then to commit horrible atrocities, which is possible, and I'm not saying that's what he did, but if that's something that they're going to allege, that raises a whole sort of array of other questions as to. Qualifies for certain crimes. But I think when you look at how he has now been targeted here, it's possible that he was fleeing another gang if he was a gang member. It's possible he was just fleeing further recruitment and wanted to get to a life of sanity and freedom.
David Rind
00:22:04
And again, it speaks to the nuances with all these individual cases, and that's why advocates say there needs to be due process, a hearing of some kind to kind of get this stuff out in the open before someone is sent away to another country.
David Culver
00:22:18
And they want to see the evidence. They want the evidence and the proof to be put out there, which we've yet to see in a physical form. Right, right. Well, David, thanks for the reporting.
David Culver
00:22:27
Appreciate it. Thanks, David.
David Rind
00:22:31
In a tense hearing on Tuesday afternoon, a federal judge said she has seen no evidence that the Trump administration is complying with her order to, quote, facilitate Abrego Garcia's return to the US and is preparing to issue a written order that would expand on her definition of the word. Meanwhile, President Trump told Fox's Spanish language channel in an interview that he, quote, would love to deport American criminals to El Salvador, saying that Attorney General Pam Bondi is studying the laws around the issue.
David Rind
00:23:09
One Thing is a production of CNN Audio. This episode was produced by Paola Ortiz and me, David Rind. Our senior producers are Felicia Patinkin, Haley Thomas, and Faiz Jamil. Matt Dempsey is our production manager. Dan Dzula is our technical director, and Steve Lickteig is the executive producer of CNN audio. We get support from Alex Manasseri, Robert Mathers, John Dianora, Leni Steinhardt, Jamus Andrest, Nichole Pesaru, and Lisa Namerow. Special thanks to Evelio Contreras and Wendy Brundage. We'll be back on Sunday. If you like the show, leave us a rating and a review, wherever you listen, spread the word, just tell a friend about the show. It's the easiest thing you can do and it really helps us out. Talk to you later.
