Scribble

Dr. Sanjay Gupta

00:00:00

It's October, which I think is my favorite month out of the year. My birthday is this month. Halloween is this month. I love as the weather starts to change. So this month means a lot to me. It also means a lot to anyone who thinks about breast cancer, because it has Breast Cancer Awareness Month. And I think it's a time to shine a light on a disease that does affect so many people.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta

00:00:23

I've dealt with this in my own family. And as you probably know, one of our very own here at CNN has been navigating and also very candidly sharing her own personal experience with it.

Sara Sidner

00:00:34

Breast cancer does not run in my family. And yet here I am with stage three breast cancer. It is hard to say out loud.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta

00:00:42

That's anchor and senior national correspondent Sara Sidner. She revealed her diagnosis on air to the world this past January. And I think right away a lot of people could relate. Because Sarah is describing a journey that is all too familiar for people all over the country.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta

00:01:00

1 in 8 women in the United States will be diagnosed with breast cancer in her lifetime. And right now, there are currently more than 4 million breast cancer survivors in the country.

Sara Sidner

00:01:12

One of the beautiful, really kind of heartwarming aspects of Sara's story is that one of her closest friends CNN's Stephanie Elam has been with Sara every step of the way. And at the same time, Sara was dealing with her diagnosis, another dear friend of Stephanie's former MTV host, Ananda Lewis, was also going through her own experience with breast cancer. So for Stephanie Elam, it was two of her best friends trying to navigate this disease at the same time. So I decided for this week's episode of Chasing Life, I wanted to hand it over to Stephanie. I wanted to hear from her. She sat down with Sara and Ananda to talk about their experiences and the lessons they've learned along the way.

Sara Sidner

00:01:57

I am terrible at advocating for myself. I will advocate for you. I will advocate for you.

Stephanie Elam

00:02:02

You're actually happy to do it better than us.

Sara Sidner

00:02:05

I will fight someone. Like, I am a ride or die b. Like, I will fight someone over certain things.

Ananda Lewis

00:02:10

Right.

Sara Sidner

00:02:11

But when it comes to myself, I will be silent. I won't do anything. I will sit there and take it in and take it and take it. So this has been a real lesson for me to self advocate.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta

00:02:22

It is a deeply personal conversation, but it's also a really important one that teaches us lessons about breast cancer... But I think many things about life in general. I'm Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN's chief medical correspondent. And this is Chasing Life.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta

00:02:42

Here's Stephanie Elam's conversation with her two close friends, CNN's Sara Sidner and content creator Ananda Lewis on their breast cancer diagnoses.

Stephanie Elam

00:02:52

So what about mammograms? Were you...? I'll start with you. Were you good about getting your mammograms?

Ananda Lewis

00:02:59

You know I wasn't.

Stephanie Elam

00:03:00

II know you weren’t. But I wanted you to say it!

Stephanie Elam

00:03:02

Ananda Lewis is living with breast cancer after finding a lump in her breast nearly six years ago. You'll know her from her time hosting BET's Teen Summit in the 90s and for being a V.J. for MTV. She's also my best friend after we met at the start of our freshman year at Howard University.

Sara Sidner

00:03:20

You're Bisons?

Stephanie Elam

00:03:21

No, you did not. You did that just for me because I hate the word Bisons because it is not a word. It's plural already.

Stephanie Elam

00:03:25

I understand she needs an S for her Gators.

Stephanie Elam

00:03:27

Also one of my closest friends is Sara Sidner, the fearless, truth seeking journalist and CNN anchor who is more comfortable reporting from chaos than she is focusing on her own needs. We've been tight ever since she moved into the office next to mine in Los Angeles more than a decade ago. Last year, she too, discovered something in her breast that turned out to be stage three breast cancer.

Stephanie Elam

00:03:51

Ananda has family members with breast cancer. Do you have family members with breast cancer?

Sara Sidner

00:03:56

No. And my mother didn't have it. My mother's mother. My mother's mother, mother. My father's mother didn't have it. Like, I don't know of breast cancer in my family. And so the doctor, I said that to him, I'm like, how did I end up getting it if it's not my family? He goes, about 95% of people with breast cancer don't have it in their family. And I'm like, then why do you ask? Because we all think we're safe.

Stephanie Elam

00:04:18

Yes.

Ananda Lewis

00:04:18

Only 10% of any cancers are genetically caused.

Stephanie Elam

00:04:20

Are genetically caused. Because I did do some research on that. And what is interesting is, yes, the same number I saw was about the vast majority have nothing to do with the fact that the family members had it. So the emphasis that needs to be on that in our communities is massive. And you're looking at people who have come from very different places who are both experiencing this pretty much around the same age. Like, how old were you guys when you were diagnosed? You were...

Ananda Lewis

00:04:49

47.

Stephanie Elam

00:04:50

47?

Sara Sidner

00:04:50

51.

Stephanie Elam

00:04:52

Is it just last year?

Ananda Lewis

00:04:53

Yeah. Hers was just last year.

Sara Sidner

00:04:55

Whoo. I mean, been a busy year.

Stephanie Elam

00:04:56

Okay.

Ananda Lewis

00:04:56

Last year... And mine was almost six years ago. January 2019. But honestly, if you have a tumor, you can feel that tumor has been growing for a good while. And even up to a decade.

Sara Sidner

00:05:06

'I didn't even think about that. I didn't know that centimeters or millimeters mattered. Yeah. And when you hear like, well, after this to this degree, you know, I need to go back and look exactly what date. But it was several months after I had gotten a mammogram that I discovered it. And this has been bothering me. So I'm just going to say this. So the American Cancer Society does not recommend self-exams anymore. They don't prioritize that as a thing. And I just think that... And I get why sometimes the mammograms, false positive people get worried. They do treatments they don't need to, do they? But to me. You know your body. If you know that there's something wrong and you're able to catch it earlier, it could have been stage four if I had have been like, I don't know what that is. I never anyway, I had no idea, blah, blah. Right. So I just I feel very strongly that we need to know our bodies, that we need to be able to touch ourselves and make sure you know what it is that you normally feel like and what is abnormal. And go get checked. Because otherwise the doctor's on at your house every day.

Ananda Lewis

00:06:06

No.

Sara Sidner

00:06:07

He doesn't know what things are normal, what's not. He doesn't know if you're feeling good or not. Like you have to advocate for yourself so much. And I am terrible at advocating for myself. I will advocate for you. I will advocate for you...

Stephanie Elam

00:06:19

You're actually happy to do it because I know I will pass you.

Sara Sidner

00:06:24

Like I will fight someone over certain things. But when it comes to myself, I will be silent. I won't do anything. I will sit there and take it in and take it and take it. So this has been a real lesson for me to self advocate. And when something like a medication or something is wrong and I'm having a reaction or whatever that I don't do so well, I guess that's just the way it is now. I'm like, okay, so what is this? I'm feeling this thing. I looked it up. It's called this, that and the other... To the doctor.

Ananda Lewis

00:06:51

Yeah, and what can we do about it?

Sara Sidner

00:06:54

And I know he has so sick of WebMD. Like, I know he's mad at WebMD.

Stephanie Elam

00:06:55

They're all mad. They're all mad at the internet searching. They're all mad at it.

Sara Sidner

00:07:00

I was taking notes the first time I met him and I was like, okay, I need to know am I going to die? And he was like, okay, Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You will be fine. And that's the first time I cried. He said, You're going to be fine. You're going to get through that. And I was like. But before that, I was peppering with questions. I was going for him and I was like, Wait, I'm going to gain weight. I will kill you, sir.

Stephanie Elam

00:07:25

You went into reporter mode!

Sara Sidner

00:07:26

He was like, Were you this mad at cancer? I said, I am now, sir, you just said, you said I'm going to make it and I'm going to gain weight. That's too far!

Ananda Lewis

00:07:36

When you talk about our women, black women being the most susceptible for dying for this, there are a lot of things tied up in those two things that make that statistic makes a little sense.

Sara Sidner

00:07:47

It does.

Stephanie Elam

00:07:48

Our inability to be comfortable with doctors goes way back. We have a rightful distrust of the medical industry that we do need to get over, but we are not going to negate that it came from somewhere.

Ananda Lewis

00:07:59

And I've had friends that have gone into doctors. In fact, a friend I just lost to breast cancer who did everything she was supposed to do, exactly like she was supposed to do it. It kept coming back and she was asking the right questions. But because there was a communication, not barrier, we all speak English, but we don't speak different kinds of English, you know what I'm saying? And so you might get in somebody in front of a doctor, not just to somebody, but in front of a doctor who culturally doesn't understand or respect the way you communicate. And that's going to create a further barrier And touching our breasts, being comfortable with our bodies...

Stephanie Elam

00:08:31

Which is a huge part... And to be honest, I didn't know until I touched your tumor.

Stephanie Elam

00:08:35

So I have to be that close to somebody, right. To be like... oh. And then when I touched it, I was like, that's completely different than anything else I felt before.

Ananda Lewis

00:08:43

Yeah, right.

Stephanie Elam

00:08:44

What we need to also clarify, though, is the routes that you've taken. And Sara, you decided right away you were like, all surgery, do it all. What was your decision?

Sara Sidner

00:08:54

I was like, Get this out of me. Cut it out. Chemo it out, right out of it. Burn it, Shock it out.

Ananda Lewis

00:09:03

Tickle it out, coax it out, get it out.

Sara Sidner

00:09:05

I'll get out. Whatever you have to do, get it out.

Sara Sidner

00:09:09

And do it now. I want an immediate response, but that's what I had in my mind. And I am a person that when I hear a problem, my immediate response is fix it. Let's fix it, happen to fix it. And I will try to solve that problem right there. And what I suddenly learned is that it wasn't going to be immediate and I had to deal with that. And I was pissed...

Stephanie Elam

00:09:31

And you disappeared.

Sara Sidner

00:09:32

And I disappeared. So this is what I do to my friends now that she's telling all of my business. My grandmother says, don't tell people your business. But here we are. So when something is difficult for me and when I am either just extremely mentally taxed or emotional or getting depressed, I go silent. So my good friends, my really good friends know. That I stopped talking. Stephanie will be like, What's going on? Because suddenly I'll just disappear for 3 or 4 weeks, like just not communicating. I don't. I don't know what it is, but it's like, I want to figure this out so that I have an answer as to not hurt my people.

Stephanie Elam

00:10:12

You are in the midst of needing care, but also care taking at the same time. And it's different because you're also have a teenage son.

Ananda Lewis

00:10:23

And mommying.

Stephanie Elam

00:10:23

Yeah. So? So it is real, right? But I feel like that's a lot of it. And because you're both out there double dutching, doing so much, you get to a point where it's like, whew.

Ananda Lewis

00:10:33

Yeah.

Ananda Lewis

00:10:34

'I think for me, the shut down happens because I need all the energy other people require from me. So if you're going through something like this and you don't cocoon... Too much energy is slipping out through these either random, unnecessary conversations like no disrespect, right? But many of the conversations are not necessary to what you're going through. Nobody's coming with you to an appointment if they are, then. But their catch-up conversations are like, tell me how you are, but do you have time to talk about it? I don't have time to talk about things I'm going through. I need the energy to get through it. And so that's why I shut down and then I'll come back around when I'm able and be like, here's what was going on. Did it like that, unfortunately, until I hit a stage four. It took me a very long time to talk about that...

Stephanie Elam

00:11:17

What is stage four? Stop. You can't just say that like that...

Ananda Lewis

00:11:20

I was using it as like an example. But you're right. When that happened, it was October of last year. I was doing so good and I just didn't talk about it. What I did was I went into action mode... I can't talk about that if I'm using energy to figure it out. So my silence comes more from needing that energy for what I'm doing. And then when I can bring my head up, I'll talk about it.

Stephanie Elam

00:11:39

You were... shall we call you the traditionalist, then?

Sara Sidner

00:11:42

Yeah.

Stephanie Elam

00:11:45

Yeah, well, I did because you had cancer in one breast?

Sara Sidner

00:11:45

Correct.

Stephanie Elam

00:11:46

But you decided to do a double mastectomy.

Sara Sidner

00:11:48

Correct?

Ananda Lewis

00:11:49

Did you? Okay! You were like you’re not gonna have a chance to cause me a problem...

Sara Sidner

00:11:51

You're not coming back in this other. You might come back in the chest wall, whatever. There are things that you can come back, but you're not coming back in the other breast. I'm not going to be doing this all day long worrying about what this lump is. Yeah, I am done. Take them both out. Finished.

Stephanie Elam

00:12:04

Finished. And you still feel good about your decision?

Stephanie Elam

00:12:05

I'm. I'd do it again and again. And again. And again. Yeah.

Ananda Lewis

00:12:08

We are so similar in some ways. And so, so differently opposite on that one.

Stephanie Elam

00:12:13

And so, so different obviously on that one. So what did you choose to do?

Ananda Lewis

00:12:16

Nothing. No.. Yeah, I...

Stephanie Elam

00:12:17

At first. Yes, I guess as a friend...

Ananda Lewis

00:12:18

Yes.

Stephanie Elam

00:12:21

At first, that was her choice.

Sara Sidner

00:12:21

Girl, I would have choked you out.

Ananda Lewis

00:12:21

It was... it was stressful.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta

00:12:23

After the break, Ananda decides to go against her doctors recommendations and try something else for her breast cancer. We'll be right back.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta

00:12:40

We are back with more of an intimate conversation between CNN's Stephanie Elam, CNN anchor Sara Sidner, and content creator Ananda Lewis.

Stephanie Elam

00:12:50

Ananda's cancer had progressed to the point where doctors recommended she have a double mastectomy. When faced with that, she opted to try alternative therapies.

Stephanie Elam

00:12:59

Your plan in the very beginning, did you know exactly that you were always going to be anti mastectomy, anti surgery?

Ananda Lewis

00:13:08

I don't want to use the word anti because I'm not against it. I see the necessity of it. I see the effectiveness of it. I know people who it's worked for, my mother being one of them, you being another. Because I'm claiming that for you in advance. No, you're not all the way outwards. But this journey is very personal, and you have to do what works for you and only you. And when we talk about what to be afraid of and he said, no, you're not going to die, you know of this.

Ananda Lewis

00:13:38

When I was in the traditional oncologist office in the very beginning and I asked all these questions and I said, Well, how did they even get here? Like, what happened? What do I need to change? How do I need to eat? I was already three months into a cleanse and I started doing my own research way back when my mother was diagnosed and trying to figure out what the body's doing. This this isn't an alien coming down the lane again. Me, my body did this. There's something to understand there. That's the the path I took in the beginning was let me figure it out.

Ananda Lewis

00:14:07

Environmental toxins. The science is saying emotional stress. The science is saying all the reasons, the whys of cancer are starting to become clear. And if we don't start addressing those, the other stuff is a half measure for me. To me, which is why I didn't do it.

Stephanie Elam

00:14:22

Okay, so what did you do? What was your plan of action plan?

Ananda Lewis

00:14:24

My plan at first was to get out the excessive toxins in my body. I felt like my my body is intelligent. I know that to be true. Our bodies are brilliantly made. They know what they're doing and we mess them up whether we know that we're messing them up or not. I decided to keep my tumor and try to work it out of my body a different way. They wanted to take both. They wanted to do all these big things that I was not ready for. So I did detoxing. I completely changed my diet, so I had a slow it down period that I thought was very effective. And then Covid hit. None of the stuff I was doing was accessible to me anymore. But I was learning in the process, and as things fell apart, it was catching the things I could use and throwing away the things I couldn't. And then I got down to this kind of more manageable table full of things I could do, you know, like actually talking about wanting to have control. That was one of the first things I was like you're not going to do nothing to me. I'm gonna to be able to do it.

Ananda Lewis

00:15:20

So first Covid happened. Tumor kept growing. I could feel that because, you know, right there.

Ananda Lewis

00:15:26

And then I had to go get some help. I was like, okay, the food, the supplements that, the thing, the thing, the things I got, I got to get more.

Stephanie Elam

00:15:32

So were thing going to change? Were you were you seeing the tumor grow then during this time?

Ananda Lewis

00:15:36

My whole breast...

Stephanie Elam

00:15:36

And so is that when you went to Arizona?

Ananda Lewis

00:15:39

I did.

Stephanie Elam

00:15:39

And so what what were you getting done there?

Ananda Lewis

00:15:42

I got... So I'm integrative because it's a little bit of conventional, a lot of natural. I got IPT, which is insulin potentiated chemotherapy, genetically targeted.

Stephanie Elam

00:15:50

So in Arizona, Ananda detoxed, going through more alternative treatments in conjunction with targeted chemotherapy, which she says helped her improve.

Stephanie Elam

00:16:01

So you get down to a stage two.

Ananda Lewis

00:16:04

And I ran out of money and help pay. I mean, let's just be real the way I was... the way I’ve done it is, girl.

Stephanie Elam

00:16:09

also it's expensive both ways, but it also by the time.

Sara Sidner

00:16:15

Two things: will insurance cover it? That's A, usually holistic, different absolutely not.

Sara Sidner

00:16:21

Nada, nada, nada. Not a not a damn thing.

Sara Sidner

00:16:23

And do you have insurance? So I feel like when I talk about this, I always say this and like, now imagine what this would be like if you didn't have insurance, what would you do? And I still to this moment, yes, there are all these different groups that can help. And what But the truth of the matter is, imagine being highly stressed about paying for saving your own life.

Ananda Lewis

00:16:45

That you need to do. Now.

Stephanie Elam

00:16:46

That you have to do. This. This is not an option.

Stephanie Elam

00:16:48

I actually even take issue with mammograms and insurance because you are covered for one mammogram a year. But if they find something that they want you to go back and check again, that's a whole nother bill. But you have to pay for that mammogram. And so if they want you to come back, people who don't have the means for that aren't going to go back in. And so it's it's cost prohibitive the way it's structured right now.

Sara Sidner

00:17:14

It hurts everybody not to be preventative. And yet you have to get sick to get help often.

Stephanie Elam

00:17:23

So you get down to stage two...

Ananda Lewis

00:17:26

I ouldn't keep up with the things they said you want to do, which were continuing to keep my body. Those things were some of the things I had done before. Some new things couldn't do any of them. Other shifts happened, you know, and other relationships in life, and I just couldn't do it. Plus, I felt good. So then I got lazy. I just started letting my life be normal again. And that felt really good because this takes everything. And I wanted something back, you know, And it was like, I need to focus on my child. I got down to a 2 in 2021 and then by 2023 and this was out of nowhere because January 2023, I was still good. I don't know. I can't even say what happened. I don't know. I mean, cancer has a funny way of just continuing to grow. But in October of last year, that scan showed that I had this kind of power up my spine through my hips almost everywhere but my brain.

Stephanie Elam

00:18:21

On your body you were feeling it, right?

Ananda Lewis

00:18:22

Yeah. My neck here, you could see these were swollen. My my lymph system really flared up. And so all through my abdomen, all those limbs were very flared up. My collarbone. It was. It was. It was bad. It was like the way it was the worst I'd ever been. I wasn't in pain until I got the bone scan. And that was the week of your birthday.

Stephanie Elam

00:18:39

My birthday party.

Ananda Lewis

00:18:40

And then the night of her birthday party, I.

Stephanie Elam

00:18:42

She was in pain.

Sara Sidner

00:18:43

My gosh.

Stephanie Elam

00:18:44

You didn't have to come.

Ananda Lewis

00:18:45

But I did have to come. I wasn't going with that. But I got in my car and I cried for, like 20 minutes before I could drive. The pain was I've never been in pain like that in my life. And it was the first time I ever had a conversation with death because I felt like this is this is how it is, you know? I was like, okay.

Ananda Lewis

00:19:03

So I don't get afraid of things. I was just like, man, I really thought I had this, you know, I was frustrated. I was a little angry at myself. I was like, I don't want to leave like this. And I said, man, listen, I know you're coming for me at some point, but I don't want it to be now. And you could just wait. I promise. When you do come on and make it fun for you, you go have fun. And we got I literally had that conversation laying in my bed. I couldn't get out of bed for like eight weeks. I fractured my hip in the middle of it because my bones were very susceptible.

Sara Sidner

00:19:37

Yeah.

Ananda Lewis

00:19:38

I mean, just so many things started going wrong. But when you talk about by that time I had my insurance back. And I was able to both jumped back into some treatment. During that break, I got a bone scan. The morning after I woke up from that scan, I couldn't walk and I was in the worst pain of my life and I had a homebirth.

Sara Sidner

00:19:58

So I've learned that my pain tolerance is high. Like, I had no idea.

Ananda Lewis

00:20:03

Because you've gone through some things you didn't think you could go through.

Sara Sidner

00:20:04

And they're like, you feeling okay? I'm like, Yeah, I'm good. And you're like, okay. You know, like.

Ananda Lewis

00:20:08

You’re look oh it’s supposed to hurt?

Sara Sidner

00:20:12

Yeah, it's good. But it's also scary and terrifying.

Stephanie Elam

00:20:15

And also because it was your birthday when I took you out and you were telling me she. Yeah, I know how she just tried to tell us right now that she's four?

Sara Sidner

00:20:23

Yeah.

Stephanie Elam

00:20:23

She did the same sort of thing. I know. You said it kind of fast, and then she started talking about death...

Ananda Lewis

00:20:31

That's a a hard conversation.

Stephanie Elam

00:20:32

I'm. I'm okay Talking about death. I think about death all the time. I think it's also because of our job.

Ananda Lewis

00:20:37

Yeah. Right.

Stephanie Elam

00:20:38

Like what we're doing. I'm constantly thinking about it and thinking about what I need to do for my daughter. I think about it weekly.

Ananda Lewis

00:20:43

Yeah, I think that's important. Weekly.

Sara Sidner

00:20:45

Mine might be daily.

Ananda Lewis

00:20:46

Yeah. I mean, not to be.

Ananda Lewis

00:20:49

Honest, I'm trying to give it time and say weekly, but it'd probably be more often.

Stephanie Elam

00:20:53

Yeah, I think that's true for so many people.

Stephanie Elam

00:20:55

Yeah, I think about it all the time. But I also was afraid that you were losing a fight.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta

00:21:02

We're going to take a quick break here. But when we come back. Living and even thriving with breast cancer. We'll be right back.

Ananda Lewis

00:21:20

'So at stage four because I did not understand metastatic breast ca -- all these terms.

Ananda Lewis

00:21:26

Yeah. They're weird.

Ananda Lewis

00:21:27

I hear them. They go in and out of your head when it's not you.

Ananda Lewis

00:21:29

You're right. Right. Because it's not relevant.

Ananda Lewis

00:21:33

Okay. Does it mean that you can ever get rid of it? Like what happens at stage four?

Ananda Lewis

00:21:38

I don't know what conventional believes, but my beliefs don't line up all the way with that. I needed some medicine for sure, but I think the reason I'm not having a lot of the side effects that many people on the same as me right now have is because I'm also doing the acupuncture Chinese medicine approach. I'm also doing other things. I keep up the integrative side because it's important for my body to feel good going through the other stuff. But it's all working.

Ananda Lewis

00:22:05

When I think about it like... It's terrifying to me to listen to you say this and then all of a sudden you're in pain and you're feeling and there are tumors. And like, my worst day, one of my worst days was getting the bone scan because I did not understand why I was doing all this. But when they told me like, if it had have been in your bones later on, then we would have been having a completely different conversation. And I'm like, Say what you want, because I'm like, okay, I'll go to the scan or do the scan or do you know?

Ananda Lewis

00:22:35

You're still running around doing my thing.

Ananda Lewis

00:22:37

I'm still doing my thing. I'm fine. I'm okay. Like nothing's happening. Hair's not coming out like nothing's happening and they're doing all this stuff. And then all of a sudden you're like, Wait, what? So what would be different with bones scan? Well, if we found it in your bones. Then you would be stage four, and then there would be this different conversation that...

Ananda Lewis

00:22:52

Leads you down the hospice road eventually.

Ananda Lewis

00:22:53

'Yeah, pretty much. Like, yeah, it would have been like you'd be living with cancer for the rest of your life. And I'm like, What? To be fair, I know someone that has metastatic breast cancer, and she's - it's been 17 years. Yeah. Or something. So survivable. Yes. I mean, we are all going to go.

Ananda Lewis

00:23:14

That's right.

Ananda Lewis

00:23:14

We are. It's something that I think about way too often. And this was before cancer, but with cancer...

Ananda Lewis

00:23:21

You think about it way more.

Ananda Lewis

00:23:23

I think about it a lot more and I think about how... But the thing that still. Messes with be is the idea of how much this is going to hurt those around me. And I can't... I can't get that out of my head. Like, how do I mitigate that?

Ananda Lewis

00:23:39

You don't. You can't.

Ananda Lewis

00:23:43

Well, you're supposed to help me have an answer.

Ananda Lewis

00:23:43

I can' help you with that, girl.

Ananda Lewis

00:23:44

Because people who love you are going to be devastated no matter how no matter when if they lose you, just like you're going to be devastated, no matter how no matter when you whether that is that or whether it's kind like, yeah, we cannot escape that.

Ananda Lewis

00:23:56

It bothers me that we can't fix.

Ananda Lewis

00:23:57

I know. It’s unfortunate.

Ananda Lewis

00:24:00

And it’s real.

Ananda Lewis

00:24:00

And even if we're all thinking about death, it's another thing to actually look at. I may be in this world without my Sara. I may be in this world without my Ananda. And who you women are to my daughter. And I don't talk to you guys every day, but I text with you guys just about every day. And that's why I'm hoping through this conversation, other people will take the time to look. At their health, see what they can do. You have a brand new haircut. How are you adjusting to this?

Ananda Lewis

00:24:28

And it's cute.

Ananda Lewis

00:24:30

I'm about to cry. And you're all talking about my hair because I look like an auntie. I got auntie vibes baby. I might be in the clear with my gray hair, but I'm going to be there. I haven't had my hair this short since I was, like, five. Literally five, like... And I didn't like it then, but I'm here.

Ananda Lewis

00:24:55

Yeah.

Ananda Lewis

00:24:55

And the thing is, it turns out the aunties do what they were doing because I grew up in this, like, easy, done. Seven minutes. Throw on some gel in there. Wash it, and kabam! I'm like, Hello? I'm ready to go. Like, I'm not hot, right? Except for the hot flashes.

Ananda Lewis

00:25:12

But yeah, everything changes. Yeah, it is a true journey. Is it a hero's journey? I have no idea. And I like what you said about not wanting to use the word fight or battle. And I've been battling with that because what we are saying to women or anyone with cancer, what we are saying to the patient is this is your battle and your fight. And if you lose it, you lost the battle.

Ananda Lewis

00:25:38

So we're putting that on people.

Ananda Lewis

00:25:40

It's like you are in the midst of trying to deal with something in your body and we're saying your responsibility, you fight it or you lose. It's it. We shouldn't be talking about it that way. It is it. It turns it in inward, like it's all on you. You fight this, and if you don't. She lost her battle with cancer like she lost you. What are we doing?

Ananda Lewis

00:26:04

You. If you extended your life, you won.

Ananda Lewis

00:26:07

Correct. You're on a journey.

Ananda Lewis

00:26:09

Yeah.

Ananda Lewis

00:26:09

The journey is not easy. But you know what? Life is not easy. And without the cancer. Right?

Ananda Lewis

00:26:14

And you don't live regardless to me, you know?

Ananda Lewis

00:26:17

Right?

Ananda Lewis

00:26:18

Nobody gets out of here alive, right? That is just so true. Not going to happen. That is so your ability and responsibility is how you're going to thrive. My quality of life was very important to me. We've had that conversation before. Like, I there's certain things I know I'm not going to be okay with, and I know myself. I want to want to be here.

Ananda Lewis

00:26:37

Yeah.

Ananda Lewis

00:26:38

And so I had to do it a certain way for me. Right? And so far, well, I won't say so far so good because there was a spot in the middle. But now we're back on this. So good.

Ananda Lewis

00:26:48

The fact that you like I want to want to be here. I've had times when I didn't want to be here.

Ananda Lewis

00:26:54

And so you mean in life? In life?

Ananda Lewis

00:26:56

Yeah. I didn't want to be here. I didn't want to go through all this.

Ananda Lewis

00:27:01

Because of this, during this journey.

Ananda Lewis

00:27:03

Before this.

Ananda Lewis

00:27:04

Okay.

Ananda Lewis

00:27:05

And then this journey came along. And it's so weird that it was cancer. It was like, I want to be here. I insist on being here and I insist on thriving. Not just being alive, not just existing. I want to thrive in a way that I have never felt before. I am too old to be feeling this now. And I have stood myself. I have told myself that I felt differently in my 20s and 30s and 40s. And now with with this. Now I want to live. Really? This is what it took... Like God is a trip. God is a trip.

Ananda Lewis

00:27:41

The sense of humor is definitely like. For real.

Ananda Lewis

00:27:47

Yeah. Having to deal with it at some point is right.

Ananda Lewis

00:27:50

This is my lesson. Like, I feel like there was everyone's like, there's a reason for everything. And sometimes I'm like, You shut your mouth. Yeah. Okay. Like, people die. Like, No. Like, this is like life. I get it. But I think that for me, I am looking at this as this is part of your journey. And with this disease, you can talk to people differently. You lived through it. You were living through it. You were living with it. And you're you're thriving with it. And I don't want people to just survive it. I want them to be able to thrive with it or without it. I want them to be able to thrive. And I'm trying to be the example for myself.

Ananda Lewis

00:28:33

Of the two of you, you can get sad.

Ananda Lewis

00:28:36

I get depressed.

Ananda Lewis

00:28:37

You get depressed. That's not really your M.O.. Like, you can get frustrated with things. But what's interesting me is that you both are saying that you have found is to appreciate life more now that you're going through this. Or is joy?

Ananda Lewis

00:28:51

Mine is joy. And I didn't realize how little joy I had in my life. Like, I didn't realize that that was not a priority in my life. Why the hell not? Because everything else is more important. Career is more important. This was more important. Going and doing and doing this for someone else was more. All of that was more important priority wise in my mind. And all of a sudden I had squeezed out about this much left for joy.

Ananda Lewis

00:29:15

Yeah, it's funny because my set point is joy, but things have definitely, you know, if you can't get taken on the roller coaster of life, you ain't livin. We're here to do that, right? You're learning. They're experiencing, you're growing, You're changing because of the influences, because of the ride. And so that part is always been okay with me. I think for me, why I'm more joyful after cancer is because the cancer diagnosis caused me to change things in my life. I never would have changed otherwise, that I needed to change but would not change. And those changes have allowed me access to more of my joy more of the time.

Ananda Lewis

00:29:51

But I want to thank you both for being open to this conversation, because I think you will have helped some people, maybe just check themselves out. To also help people who are supporting them understand what you're going through, because I think that's a huge part of it is caregiving. Caretakers don't know what to do, how to do it. And be a supportive person...

Ananda Lewis

00:30:11

And don't be mad when your person goes quiet. Doesn't mean they're not OK.

Ananda Lewis

00:30:15

But just check in... but just let them know that you're still there and that you love them and. Yeah. I can't imagine my life without either one of you. And I know someday that may be a thing. But right now, I'm happy you're both doing better and you're thriving. And I love you both.

Ananda Lewis

00:30:34

We love you too, Steph. Thank you so much for having this. This was important.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta

00:30:38

You know, as hard as these conversations about cancer can be, I think it's really important. It's important to make space for them to talk about it, to learn from each other. We don't often get to hear conversations like that one. So, Sara Ananda, thank you for sharing.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta

00:30:54

And thank you, Stephanie, for bringing us this conversation. Now, as a reminder, breast cancer screening, including mammography, can help detect breast cancer early before you might even know that there's a problem.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta

00:31:08

That is a time when it's easier to treat and does give a woman a higher chance of survival. The specific recommendations from the U.S. Preventative Services Task Force is that all women get screened for breast cancer every other year, starting at age 40, continuing through age 74.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta

00:31:24

Now, for women with dense breasts, and this represents approximately half of all women age 40 and over, there have been some recent studies. Basically, there's not yet enough evidence to recommend for or against additional screening with things like ultrasound or MRI. But if you're wondering about this, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration recently implemented a new rule that requires facilities that perform mammograms to inform women about their breast density. If you have a personal or strong family history of breast cancer, if you carry a genetic marker that puts you at higher risk of breast cancer, or if you've had chest radiation before the age of 30, the American Cancer Society recommends getting a breast MRI and mammogram every year, typically starting at age 30.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta

00:32:11

To find out when you should start getting screened, how often, using what technology, talk to your health care provider. Look at the American Cancer Society Web site. Make sure you understand how you're going to decide based on your particular situation. Don't delay those appointments. And if you can, remind your friends and your family to get checked out as well.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta

00:32:32

We'll be back with Paging Dr. Gupta and more Chasing Life next week. We're going to have to tempt your sweet tooth ahead of Halloween. You'll see what I mean next Friday...

Dr. Sanjay Gupta

00:32:43

Chasing Life is a production of CNN Audio. Our podcast is produced by Eryn Mathewson, Jennifer Lai, Grace Walker and Jesse Remedios. Andrea Kane is our medical writer. Our senior producer is Dan Bloom. Amanda Sealy is our showrunner. Dan Dzula is our technical director and the executive producer of CNN Audio is Steve Lickteig.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta

00:33:06

With support from Jamus Andrest, Jon Dianora, Haley Thomas, Alex Manasseri, Robert Mathers, Leni Steinhardt, Nichole Pesaru and Lisa Namerow Special thanks to Ben Tinker and Nadia Kounang of CNN Health and Katie Hinman.