We should have like a jazz trio called The Canceled or something.

I think we didn't even mention is the Wikipedia page, which is like way worse.

So there's an entry specifically for...

Yeah. Thursday Night Massacre.

Yeah. Thursday Night Massacre. I was like, Jesus Christ, that sounds so embarrassing.

Today's episode is the story of how that Wikipedia page came to be and why the ramifications are still playing out on the social media. Many of us use CNN's Donie O'Sullivan says it all started two years ago in late 2022. Not long after the billionaire Elon Musk had shocked the world by buying Twitter.

There had been an account called Elon Jet, which was basically tracking Elon Musk's private jet around the world. Its run at the time by this kid in Florida named Jack Sweeny. Elon, who is supposedly this free speech advocate and wanted to turn Twitter into a bastion of free speech, took issue with this account.

Even though this kind of data is publicly available. Musk claimed the flight tracking amounted to doxing that it put his life in danger. He suspended Sweeney's account even after initially saying he wouldn't.

So we did a story for the Anderson Cooper Show on CNN. Why did you decide to set up this account? I was a fan of Elon. You know, he does some pretty cool stuff with SpaceX and Twitter. And we interviewed Jack Sweeney and kind of spelt out the story. It just shows that he can continue to do what the last people did at Twitter and they can bend the rules and however which way they want for whoever they want. And that, I thought was the end of us until I think about 24 hours later as I was back on my way to work. I got multiple texts and calls telling me I had been kicked off Twitter.

But Donnie wasn't the only one. Fellow tech reporters Ryan Mack from the New York Times and Drew Harwell from The Washington Post were also given the boot.

I was driving home with some barbecue I'd picked up for takeout for my kid and my wife when I started getting blown up on my phone about being kicked off Twitter. And I said, No, no, it's the it's the kid who runs the Elon Jet account. He's he's the one I was talking about. He got kicked off of Twitter and then this flight is like, no, it's you.

It was so stupid.

In a series of tweets, Musk claimed without evidence that Donie Ryan and Drew all shared his precise real time location, in his words, basically assassination coordinates. But they didn't share anything like that. All they did was report on Musk and what he was doing with his new platform, which again, he promised would be a digital town square where all legal speech would be allowed.

I remember those days being crazy like the day it happened. Katy in a topless. Who is that? I think BuzzFeed at the time, my old colleague just hosted a Twitter space about the banning of the journalists.

You dox, you could get suspended, end of story.

And then Elon calls in.

You show the link to the real time information ban evasion. Obviously.

I drew, I don't think you were posting the real time information. Right.

I mean, you're suggesting that we're sharing your address, which is not not true. And you're suggesting that where we're posting and we never, I never posted your address and he started, you know, just going over his his lines, his defense of why he had done it, why it was so serious.

It's no more acceptable for me, for you than it is for me. Same thing. So anyway.

So it's unacceptable what you're doing.

Know what? You're dorks. You get suspended. End of story. That's it.

This conversation was a bit of a mess, and eventually Musk did backtrack.

Initially, Musk said, these are going to be lifetime bans or permanent bans, I think. And then he turned around and said, you know, we're going to give them their accounts back.

'But ever since they were let back on. Experts say Twitter, now called X, has become a home to a host of hateful Far-Right voices that can sometimes run unchecked. And now the owner of this platform, Elon Musk, has the ear of President elect Donald Trump in a way no tech leader has ever had before. So amid Trump's escalating threats against the press and a possible TikTok ban on the horizon, what can we expect from the Internet in 2025? Today, a conversation with Ryan, Drew and Donie from CNN. This is one thing. I'm David Wright. So, Tony, as we sit here two years later, what do you think that whole episode can tell us about where we are now in 2024 in terms of free speech online and how it is or isn't moderated?

Well, I think it really set the stage for us. X Twitter has become where is kind of just these totally random arbitrary decisions being made, no communication or transparency about really what is happening on the platform. And I think it has fundamentally changed the Internet's social media, the world. I mean, a few years ago, Ryan Drew and I, you know, we're talking a loss to these social media platforms, you know, talking to matter, talking to YouTube and X and asking them questions about their policies because, you know, they all say and they tell advertisers, we don't have hate on this platform or we don't allow this or this or this. And and, you know, there was there was a lot of reporting and in how these platforms were trying to please speech or at least hate speech on their platforms and that's kind of all gone away now. In fact, I bumped into a person from Facebook recently and I was like, You guys just must be delighted because the Overton Window, like the bar has been lowered so much by X. So I think it's just changed the standards an awful lot.

What are the jokes that critics of Ellen started saying on Twitter now after he took it over and started saying this is a platform for free speech, is they would respond to those tweets by saying one word cisgender, as in, you know, people who are not transgender. It's not a slur. But Elon Musk says it is a slur because of his own personal views on transgender recognition. And when people would say that it would be automatically flagged by Twitter as basically hate speech, purely because Ellen did not like that term. And the joke was, it's Ellen's platform now, right? Like, it doesn't matter what what normal people may believe. It doesn't matter what the companies decry as this is how he wants it to be now.

'Well, that's what I wanted to ask, because, like, how much of this is purely driven by this one guy, Elon Musk, because he's become involved in Republican politics, He's poured millions of dollars into helping elect Donald Trump, and now he's going to co-lead this new Department of Government Efficiency, a.k.a. Doge. Ryan, you wrote a whole book about Elon Musk and his acquisition of Twitter. How do you think his proximity to power is going to impact what goes on in these online spaces?

It's it's hard to say. I mean, I'll say this. He's he's even before this, he was extremely powerful, you know, before his relationship with Donald Trump. You know, this only makes him more powerful. I mean, that's kind of obvious statement. It makes him wealthier. You know, we've seen his net worth grow up to surpass $400 billion in the last couple of weeks because the market believes it's going to benefit him and his companies. And we've seen him, you know, use his power and his platforms, you know, his control of these platforms, our control of Twitter to benefit himself. And so I don't see that stopping anytime soon.

And Ryan would know, by the way, because Ryan wrote the book on Elon Musk character limits how Elon Musk Destroyed Twitter. I encourage all of our listeners to buy it. Thank you. But I think that when it comes to speech on the Internet, I'm not sure history will necessarily judge Musk so harshly because I think, you know, whether it's true or not, like among a lot of the population, there was a sense that there was this kind of crackdown too much on whether it was fact checking on Massa or removing posts on different social media platforms, and that in some way we as journalists got in on it too much in terms of, you know, we were just kind of doing our jobs, asking these multibillion dollar corporations, why aren't they just keeping their policies? And then I think that was exacerbated by the handling by Twitter of the Hunter Biden laptop in 2020. And then, I mean, things like, you know, we are quick to forget that there was a point in time on matter on Facebook's platforms that people were not allowed to talk about the lab leak theory. So, you know, I think that really stuck in people's craw. Now, I will also just say that like you're working a lot of the time here with really actors who are acting in very bad face like a lot of the people who are sharing the lab leak theory back in 2020 were doing so with a tinge or more than a hinge of racism and bigotry and everything else. So, yeah, I do know that the guys might tell me I'm totally wrong.

No, I do. I do think there's something there in that view. But I also feel like like our discussion of free speech is so biased towards like, what we see in the US. Whereas, like, you know, Musk is trying to portray himself as this kind of global defender of free speech, and they're just many instances showing that that's not the case. You know, I have one off the top of my head is is Twitter and ex have censored a BBC documentary critical of Narendra modi on behalf of the Modi government. He has complied with takedown requests in Turkey, for example, where the Erdogan government has has pushed them to remove things. And, you know, I think this is this is the question with Elon is, is when push comes to shove, will he truly stand up for free speech because the examples are not in his favor. Let's say, you know, China, where he is very connected to with Tesla, you know, is a major manufacturing hub for that company. What happens if the Chinese government isn't happy with something that said on Twitter, sorry, X and asked him to remove it or censor it? Those are the larger questions we have to ask ourselves and have to ask him. And his track record has shown, especially outside of the US, that he is not a defender of free speech.

How does this conversation dovetail with the incoming Trump administration and its approach to journalism and press freedom? We're talking, you know, just after a weekend where ABC News settled with Donald Trump defamation lawsuit, like, is there going to be a chilling effect that kind of settles throughout journalism? True. What do you think about that?

You know, I think the big thing to think about is that two of the bigger social platforms in this country, X and to a smaller degree true social, are now run by people very close to the Trump administration. Right. You know, President elect Trump and you have Elon Musk. And those people have a big vested interest in not just their platforms doing well, but also and having their viewpoints do well in terms of getting a lot of attention. And they are often in conflict with independent reporting, right? Mainstream reporting, legacy media. You know, Elon has said many times we are the media now in terms of Elon and X users are the media. They don't need the mainstream media. They think the legacy media is lying. And, you know, President elect Trump has has said many similar things before. So, you know, we're now getting to a point where the the angry words are becoming more than that. And they are becoming, you know, lawfare and lawsuits and and legal threats. And so I think there are there is the potential for a chilling effect when journalists not only have to, you know, cover these people without fear or favor, but also, you know, potentially share their information on those same platforms and work in the same city where the government is based. So, yeah, I think I think it's a big deal.

Do you guys personally worry about any retribution? Like it's one thing to be kicked off a social media platform, but it's another thing, like you said, to have the weight of government and the potential of legal action coming down.

Well, I. So I might be the only person on here who has gotten in a legal entanglement with with Elon. He tried to depose me at one point in 2018, 2019 for my reporting. I wasn't party to the case, but he tried to. Bring me in and have me deposed. I mean, that alone is is is kind of scary. You know, you don't want to be put into a situation where your self as a reporter can be questioned. You can have your work scrutinized. I remember just even that process, you know, we had to engage a lawyer. It's expensive and it's it's time consuming and it really gets in the way of your work. And I do think that's that's worrying. You know, he is the most resource person in the world. He has the ability to engage in these lawsuits or depose people or, you know, drag these things out and make it really tough, even for three large news organizations like ourselves. You know, that work you know, work at these places. You know, imagine if he goes after an independent journalist or someone just a random tweeter, you know, he has all the power in that case. Right.

I think what a lot of people want to know is come the new year, January 19th specifically, is tick tock about to be banned? Drew, I know you've been doing some reporting on this. Like what should we know about that?

It's more likely now than it has ever been for sure. I and many others were skeptical that the government would get its case deemed constitutional by the courts because as you remember, when he was president the first time Trump called to force the sale or ban of tick tock.

And they said, look, it can't be controlled for security reasons by China. Too big, too invasive, and it can't be.

'It was rebuked by the courts very vigorously who said it was basically a violation of the First Amendment, among other things. But this is a law signed by President Biden, passed by bipartisan lawmakers. Tick tock. China based owner Bytedance is on the clock to sell it to a non-Chinese owner by January 19th or have it banned in the US. The law has been deemed constitutional by a very high level appeals court in D.C. that examines questions like these.

So the Supreme Court has just added a major case to its docket this term, agreeing to hear arguments over that law that could ban TikTok. It's a law that.

TikTok has asked the Supreme Court to review that.

And the court is moving quickly here, expediting the case and scheduling arguments for January 10th, just nine days before the law is set to take effect.

Again, this is an app with 170 million U.S. accounts. It's one of the biggest platforms in the country. It was extremely important during the campaign. Both candidates used it very vigorously. The big question mark is President elect Trump.

The president is now on TikTok.

It's my honor...

During the campaign. He said many times that he would save. Tick tock. He had a tick tock account that he loved.

So he tried to ban him when he was first in office. Yes. Now he wants to save it.

Right. And he likes it because tick talkers like him.

And I appreciate all your support. A

And you'll never ban tik tok.

That's for sure. I will never ban tik tok.

Thank you.

'One thing that Tik Tok did that was very smart was they hired some former Trump people and they put out some numbers during the campaign, basically showing how amazingly Trump content, pro-Trump content was doing on the platform. So I think that also has a role to play in Trump's shades of potential change of heart on this. So I think that's going to play a big part in this, too.

But this is a law that he can't just sort of willy nilly overturn. He has to get Congress to agree to overturn itself, which, you know, again, they just passed it by a bipartisan majority. They'd have to go back and say, you know what, we were wrong a couple of months ago and they may not want to do that. Right. Because bipartisan votes, they don't come easy. And DC, he could tell his attorney general not to enforce it. But the trick there is that it's not enforced against tick tock. It's enforced against Apple, Google, Oracle, the companies that help tick tock if they listen to Trump and don't enforce the law and then, you know, Metta or somebody sues them, they could be on the hook. And so their lawyers are having to decide, do we want to go with the letter of the law or do we want to go with a president elect who changes his mind quite often? So it's it's going to be a wild, wild road here. I mean, Supreme Court could could overturn it. But I think the betting money right now is that that they won't that they will agree that national security takes precedence over free speech concerns. And this this app could go away.

Wow. So it could really happen. But what would a like if it did go away? How would that influence this whole conversation we've been having about free speech and where the ideas are and who gets to say like how they're moderated? What would that do?

'So yeah, it'll make it really interesting because Tik-tok is owned by a Chinese company. It's it's China's big first global success story in all of social media history in this country, Every social media platform we have had has come from basically a small part of California called Silicon Valley. And it's always had, you know, kind of this American ideal blanket on top of it. And yet, you know, here the country is banning a speech platform based off of, you know, how it how it runs. And so, you know, if you have a young person in your life, you will know that it is very important to them.

I feel like we should protest this whole to come below.

If you agree.

I have to talk about this. I'm like so mad.

Whether you like the platform or not. This is a place where conversations are happening day in and day out.

Not to mention all the people who, you know, make money off of this app and who like use it as a full time career and who have worked super hard to get where they are. And they don't care. They don't care about us.

So for that to potentially vanish in blink of an eye really kind of, you know, raises the question of like, what does free speech look like in this country? You know, what are our values around free expression when a platform like this can just disappear all at once?

Okay, so that's tick tock. But to look ahead to the new Trump administration and to swing the conversation back around to Twitter, slash X, what does it say that President elect Trump, who has been welcomed back to acts after being kicked off following January 6th, seems to prefer his own social media site, Truth Social, like he posted to Twitter nonstop during his first presidency.

I've talked to a lot of Trump world people about this over the years. It's a commercial decision for him to keep his focus on true social. Trump Media, which owns true social, is the biggest asset Trump has at this point. It's worth more than all of his commercial real estate combined. So he has a big interest in this website succeeding. It may never succeed, right? But he he has told people it is good for him to route the world's attention to his own property instead of focusing his fire on X.

Yeah, I was I was going to say, there's plenty of those accounts that just parrot what he says on true social and they just bring it over to X. So like it's the same effect essentially. And plenty of outlets report on what he says on true social too so he so getting the his message out.

I assume that the White House and the administration will be on Facebook and on X, but I mean, wouldn't it be something if if Trump chose to only put that up on untruth social also, we're really just. Forward to this, I guess, whole new unchartered territory because this is a really different space. So when he was president last time. We've seen through this election cycle the mainstream media is less powerful. Independents and other creators are more powerful. But also the national conversation is a lot more divided right now. People are having conversations over here, here and here. It almost feels as if there isn't. You know, there was a time, I think, where at least for users of Twitter, you could be honest and feel like, okay, this is the national discourse for today and it.

Is the Capital C conversation.

Yes. And you know, because it and you see it reflected and news and back and forth and everything else, whereas I don't I don't feel that anymore.

Why make that offer? so well, I think it's very important for there to be an inclusive arena for free speech where.

You know, Ellen came in and the Twitter acquisition with this idea that he would make an Everything app. You know, people would be so obsessed with Twitter X that they would use it for everything. It would it would occupy all hours of their day. And like, I feel like his lasting legacy and all this has gone the opposite way. It's it's it's driven people away. It's kind of ruined this this central watering hole that we all went to in the morning to understand what was going on in the world.

My strong intuitive sense is that having a public platform that is maximally trusted and and and broadly inclusive is extremely important to the future of civilization.

But you remember, you know, when he was on stage at TEDx in Vancouver in the days after announcing that he's going to buy the company in April 2022, you had all these promises and like, he's nowhere near that, but he's now more powerful than ever.

A lot of this conversation was shaped not even just two years ago, but almost four years ago now, right around January 6th. That was really the moment that kicked off Trump losing his mainstream accounts on on Facebook and Twitter and others and it propelling people on the right to feel like they needed their own tech stack. Right. They needed their own YouTube which became Rumble. They needed their own Amazon, their own social networks. And at the time, there was a lot of criticism of them as like, these will always be dinky little things who care, but those are really prominent properties, right? They have audiences. They may not be the size of a Facebook, but they have enough people to matter. And you know, on the left, you've seen there be tribalism kind of on me. And another way, right? You see blue sky and some of these other sort of alternative platforms really drawing in a lot of liberals who feel like excess has gotten away from them. So Twitter was never a balanced mainstream conversation. We all knew that even at the time when we as journalists were spending too much time there, we kind of wanted it to be a place that was, you know, reflective of the Capital C conversation, and it never really was. But now, you know, the facade is totally gone. And there's an understanding, I think, that these platforms are only ever going to be a tiny sliver of what people are talking about. And so I think in some ways that's that's a good thing for us to be more aware that there's no substitution for going out and talking to normal people. But in another way, you know, it is kind of a loss if the lesson from this is that we all go to our our separate teams and only only talk amongst ourselves. I think there's value in having a non ideological place to have these conversations. And if we ever get that back, I think that's the question.

I should say. We reached out to X to ask about their content moderation policies. They did not respond. Tonio Sullivan, Drew Harwell, Ryan Mack, thank you all for being here.

Thank you.

Thank you. Just a bit of housekeeping here. We will not have a new episode this coming Wednesday, New Year's Day, but we'll be back on Sunday, January 5th. I'll talk to you then. Happy New Year, everybody. I'll see you in 2025. One thing is a production of CNN Audio. This episode was produced by Paola Ortiz, Leying Tang and me, David Rind. Our senior producers are Felicia Patinkin and Faiz Jamil. Matt Dempsey is our production manager. Dan Dzula is our technical director, and Steve Lickteig is the executive producer of CNN Audio. We get support from Haley Thomas. Alex Manasseri, Robert Mathers, John Dianora, Leni Steinhart, Jamus Andrest, Nichole Pesaru and Lisa Namerow. Special thanks to Claire Duffy, Wendy Brundage and Katie Hinman.