This is Tug of War. I'm David Rind, and today we're going to bring you something a little bit different, because recently I had the opportunity to record a live episode of this podcast in front of an audience at the Cascade PBS Ideas Festival in Seattle. My guest was CNN international correspondent, Nada Bashir. You've heard her on the show before, and we went deep on what it's like to cover this war in Gaza from afar, and how we try to navigate the complexities and deep seated passions this conflict ignites while still trying to bring audiences the facts of what's happening on the ground. I personally really found this to be a valuable conversation, and I'd really like you to hear it. So we'll be back with the latest from Israel and Gaza next week. And in the meantime, here is my conversation with CNN's Nada Bashir, recorded live at the Cascade PBS's Ideas Festival on May 4th. So I kind of want to go back to October 7th and the days after those horrible Hamas terror attacks where over 1200 people were killed, hostages were taken. And, you know, in those days after CNN kind of jumped in to cover the story in a big way, in a way only CNN really can. Fanning out across the region; our podcast, we were the first major news organization to have a daily podcast to kind of cover those first chaotic weeks, but I wanted to hear about your perspective. As a TV correspondent, what was your first assignment when this happened?

Well, look, of course, CNN sprang into action, as you said, across the region, particularly in Israel, covering the immediate aftermath of the Hamas terror attacks. But I think for a lot of us who have spent a lot of time covering the Middle East and in particular Gaza in the occupied West Bank, a lot of us immediately began to think about what the potential response would be, potentially airstrikes in Gaza. So a big focus was, you know, how do we get into the right places that we need to be? And in particular, what will access to Gaza look like? So one of my first assignments, or really my first assignment was to head to the UAE, to Dubai, where we were waiting for access to the Gaza Strip because like.

You know, before this conflict, even aid was a big deal in Gaza. You know, it's not like everything was all great before that. So, like, how did those first aid shipments kind of work? Like what was the calculus that was going on there?

Well, there were certainly a lot of questions at the time about whether or not aid would still be able to get in. And as you mentioned, Gaza has always been hugely dependent on international aid. And it is very tricky to get aid in. Before the war, we were seeing about 500 to 600 trucks of aid getting into the Gaza Strip, primarily through the border crossing which separates Gaza from Egypt. And that was our main focus of my first assignment was trying to get on one of these crucial aid flights from the UAE, which was heading to the LRH airbase in North Sinai. This is primarily been one of the main access points, for aid now to get into Gaza, many countries have flown in aid to this airbase, and we've seen these lines of aid trucks waiting on the Egyptian side of the border, trying to get access to the Gaza Strip. And of course, in those early weeks, there were still a lot of questions about, you know, whether those trucks would be allowed in, whether the border would be open. We saw huge delays in getting that border opened. And in fact, when it came to the question of access to Gaza, not just for aid organizations, but also for journalists, we saw those difficulties, and it quickly became clear that we wouldn't be able to get into Gaza, to Rafah.

Yeah. I mean, this is kind of what I want to talk about because, the the access to Gaza for journalists, you know, independent media really can't get in because of Israeli restrictions, despite a lot of push from Western media to get in there. So we've had to rely a lot on Palestinian journalists. And so I guess I'm wondering when you are putting together a TV package for, you know, covering what is happening on the ground there, like, what does that process look like with that? You know, knowing that we can't be there ourselves?

We are hugely reliant on our Palestinian colleagues inside Gaza. We have a number, of producers and photojournalists who work with CNN, as I know, and Mohamed Salah, who, among many others who have been so vital in documenting what is happening in Gaza. Of course, had we had access to Gaza, if we were able to get access to Gaza, as we continue to push to try and get access to our teams would be there on the ground directly. But that simply hasn't been the case. The only way that journalists have been able to get in so far is, on guided tours with members of the Israeli military.

Embeds...

The embeds, which of course are heavily restricted. We are only seeing what the Israeli military wants us to see. And of course, our colleague Clarissa Ward was able to get access independently, with an aid organization, but again, very limited time frame. They're not really able to see the full picture of what is happening in Gaza. So it's these Palestinian journalists on the ground who are really bearing witness to what is happening, sharing what is happening with us. And of course, they're doing this under the most horrific of circumstances, many of them with their loved ones. Family members, of course, have been killed and also at a huge risk to their own lives as well.

Yeah. I try to imagine if, like you or I were living through a war, and then we also had to go cover that war. That's just like a huge burden to bear, honestly.

Absolutely. And I mean, we spoke to our colleague under assignment for World Press Freedom Day.

Was yesterday.

Which was yesterday. Yes. And he sort of walked us through as part of this story, a day in the life of covering what is happening in Gaza, for CNN. And, I mean, he is still living with his family in Gaza City in northern Gaza, which is one of the most devastated areas. Of Gaza. And, you know, often these journalists will travel in groups in order to protect themselves from becoming a target. But he's doing this work while also fearing for the lives of his children, of his wife, of his wider family. Many journalists have been injured. This is the deadliest conflict for media workers, according to.

I was I was looking at a chart the other day and it was like unbelievable. The spike in the the deaths, you know, for this war compared to all these other past conflicts.

It is it's unbelievable. It's shocking. It is distressing. And yet these journalists continue to do their jobs. And it is so vital, particularly because we can't get access. And of course, these are journalists who know the story inside out. This is their lives. They've lived through this. And we're not just talking about living, in a conflict zone post October 7th, but we're also talking about what it means to live as a Palestinian in the Gaza Strip, which has been under blockade since 2007. It is a unique experience for journalists living in those conditions, and it is so vital for us as Western media outlets to listen to these journalists, to rely on their expertise, and to really value the storytelling that is coming out of Gaza.

Yeah. So you kind of deal with them directly when you're putting together your reports. So what did they tell you about, like what is being lost as we as we hear all these heated discussions about this conflict, you know, on college campuses or wherever it may be.

Yeah. I mean, for Palestinian journalists both in the Gaza Strip and also in the occupied West Bank, the message that we've heard time and time again is that their perspectives are not being listened to, that they're not being relied upon, that we are seeing international journalists flying in to tell the story when there are so many voices inside Gaza and in the occupied West Bank who have been desperate to tell the story and continue to try and tell their story.

They're like, I've been saying this even before October 7th that things are bad people pay attention.

Yeah, absolutely. And we've heard that from our own colleagues, in the Gaza Strip, but. And in the occupied West Bank, in Jerusalem. I mean, this is a situation that has been bubbling for some time now. And we've been talking, you know, pre October 7th, we were talking a lot about the potential for another intifada, another uprising, another bout of violence in the occupied West Bank. And I think for a lot of time international attention really shifted away from what was happening there. But, you know, what is happening in Gaza right now is horrific. And it is a huge focus, of course, for outlets like CNN. But we can't lose sight of the fact that there have been huge issues in Gaza, huge human rights violations in both Gaza and the occupied West Bank before October 7th. And this is something that Palestinian journalists have been documenting throughout.

Right. And I'm interested, too, in how the message and how the coverage is kind of different, you know, in different places in the Middle East that that you've been to as opposed to, you know, in other parts of the world. How do you see that distinction?

'Well, when we're covering this story in the Middle East and we speak to people across the region, this isn't a news story for them. The Israel-Palestine conflict, the question, of Palestinian self-determination is something which is deeply personal for many in the Middle East. It is something that is covered frequently by Middle Eastern news outlets, and in great depth as well, in a way that we don't necessarily see in the West, perhaps in the US or elsewhere in Europe, in the UK. And so there is a very different approach to how it is, covered, and particular with regards to the depth in which is covered, because of course, this is a conflict which has wide reaching impacts and that is felt primarily in the Middle East. I mean, you know, we're seeing the war play out in the Gaza Strip. We're seeing the uptick in violence in the occupied West Bank, but we're also feeling the effects of it in other countries from Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Jordan, Egypt. So this is a conflict which impacts many across the Middle East. It is deeply personal.

Yeah. And if you've spent time in some of those other places, what were those trips kind of like in terms of the emotion and kind of what you were hearing from people?

Well, look, in the early weeks of the war, we spent a lot of time in Iman in Jordan, where we saw huge, huge protests and demonstrations against the war, against the air strikes in Gaza, and in particular in solidarity with the Palestinian people. And it's important to remember that more than half of the population in Jordan are Palestinian descent. So again, this conflict is very personal to many in Jordan. And on the diplomatic front, we know, of course, that the Jordanian royal family and government have been very vocal on what is happening in Gaza. But we've also seen this conflict play out in other areas. We've seen the impacts, for example, in southern Lebanon, you know, we spent time in Lebanon where we've seen the exchange of fire between the Israeli military and Hezbollah, on that southern.

Border, very much an active front.

Absolutely. And we've seen civilians, we've seen journalists killed on the Lebanese side of. Of order. So this is felt very keenly in Lebanon, many that are fearing the potential for an escalation.

I'm interested in like the idea of the the protests that we've seen on campuses in the U.S. the last couple of weeks, and they're kind of spreading all over the world now. And I think we hear from young people and they some of them say, this is the first time I'm hearing about a lot of these issues. And like my my eyes are kind of open to what has been going on here for the first time. Do you think that's, kind of the same in other countries, or is has it been going on for so long? And that's just kind of deeply ingrained in people there.

'I do think there is a generational shift. We're seeing it a lot with young people who have, of course, access to social media, who rely predominantly now on social media for, their updates on what is happening in Gaza and across the region and who are seeing the unfiltered raw footage coming out of Gaza. Yeah. And I think that has drawn a very strong reaction from those in the younger generation. And we've seen that play out in college campuses. Now, the Palestine solidarity movement on campus isn't new. It's been around for decades. We've seen them active. We've seen them protests before, but never on this scale. But I don't think we've seen a war impacting the Palestinian people on this scale in the last few decades, either. So the reaction is very strong. But it's also not just about solidarity with the Palestinian people. I mean, one of the primary messages that we're hearing in these college protests is an anti-war message. Many do not want to see this war play out. Many are calling for a ceasefire, which includes peace in Gaza, but also the return of hostages, crucially. Right. And also, they're calling for divestment in projects that they feel don't align with their values. They don't want to be, you know, associated with an institution and university or college which is providing funding or whatever support it may be to projects which they feel don't align with their values and perhaps don't align with their wish to see a cease fire.

Yeah. And I think a lot of the response from law enforcement and how that's kind of played out is distracted, right, from some of the message. And that's that's got to be frustrating to for those protesters.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we've seen quite the crackdown from law enforcement, from university officials and authorities. And we've seen a lot of focus also on the more fringe elements of these protest movements. So, of course, there have been incidents of antisemitism, of behavior which is simply not appropriate. But these are minority voices. These are fringe voices, as there often are in these protest movements. And of course, we have to remember the protests are designed to disrupt that is that is that's something that is the central message, right. And so yes, they are disruptive, but that is the point. They have largely been peaceful. And in fact, much of the violence that we've seen, or at least the tensions that we've seen, have come about as a result of that crackdown by law enforcement officials. And in response to that. But I think the primary message that we've been hearing throughout these college protest, which are now spreading to where I live in the United Kingdom, is that they want to see an end to this war. They want to see peace in Gaza. They want to see a return of all the hostages. And clearly, this is really driven a strong reaction from the younger generation. And while this is sort of we've seen this intensify on college campuses recently, it's been quite remarkable to see over the last seven months, the continued protests as well.

Yeah, it's like it it has not let up. But if anything it's getting more and more.

Not at all. And I mean, in previous instances where we've seen airstrikes on Gaza, where we've seen assaults on the occupied West Bank, we have seen protests, but they haven't lasted as long. They haven't necessarily been as big. That mean over the last seven months, we've seen continued protests in New York, in Washington, in L.A., in London.

And you see, like State Department officials, government officials actually resigning because they say they don't want to be complicit in what they see as the US's, you know, endorsement of what's going on.

Absolutely. And, you know, we're seeing U.S. officials resigning. We're seeing others in other industries protesting, being quite vocal in their opposition to whatever institution they belong supporting, or, as they say, facilitating, the ongoing war in Gaza. This isn't something we've seen before. I mean, the scale of what we're seeing in Gaza is hard to put into words. More than 34,600 people killed in about seven months. And, you know, the death toll is continuing to rise. We're not seeing the war let up. The airstrikes are continuing. We're hearing more warnings now of famine in Gaza. We're seeing horrific images coming up. And I think it is getting to a point where for a lot of people, it is hard to watch what is unfolding in Gaza while also seeing governments continuing. To provide, for example, military support, as we've seen in the US.

Well, I want to ask about the images and you talk about that, the constant stream on social media and how people are just seeing that. So as a correspondent who is trying to kind of distill some of that into a a story for TV. How do you, you know, how do you approach that idea and the idea that, you know, people may have been seeing a certain story play out on social media for days before they see it? Yeah. On TV?

Yeah. I mean, we get a lot of responses, particularly from members of the younger generation saying, you know, we've seen this video on Instagram, on TikTok a week ago.

Why am I just seeing it now?

Exactly. Oh, CNN's only paying attention now is the common response. But our job isn't to mimic social media. We see this video coming in. It often goes viral and platforms like Instagram and TikTok. But our job is to corroborate, to make sure we have all the facts, all the data, all the context needed in order to actually tell a full story, to paint a full picture of what is happening on the ground. Our job is to push back as well on authorities to get the data and the information needed from authorities on the ground, like Gaza, civil defense and the Health Ministry, but also to put those questions to the Israeli military as well, so that we can present this full picture of what is happening. And of course, a lot of the video that we're seeing coming in from Gaza is very distressing. It is very graphic. And seven months on, the worry is that people become desensitized to these sorts of images. And so our job is also to make sure that the videos that we are putting out there, the stories that we are putting out, that are as powerful as possible so that they resonate with the audience as opposed to somebody sort of looking through it and then just thinking.

Yeah, just unfiltered carnage. What stories have stuck out to you? What people have you met while on assignment that have kind of stayed with you all these seven months?

It's it's hard to forget any of the of the people that we've met over the last seven months or any of the voices that we've heard from Gaza, particularly the children who are now, you know, seven months on, have seen things that.

You know, nobody should see.

Nobody should see. Yeah. And so that's very difficult. Obviously we can't get access to Gaza. We spent a lot of time in Jerusalem, in the occupied West Bank, speaking to Palestinian families there. We visited, a number of families who actually were evacuated from Gaza before October 7th for medical treatment, and have now been unable to return, of course, because of the war. And so we spoke to children and their relatives who were able to accompany them for medical treatment. And despite the unfolding catastrophe in Gaza, all of them told us they wanted to go home. You know, they were worried about their loved ones back home.

They would rather be back there where the airstrikes are following.

Yeah.

Yeah. To be with their families. Yeah.

I think it's very interesting, the dynamic, amongst the Palestinian community and what I've noticed and what I think a lot of people, perhaps on the outside would underestimate, is the deep sense of attachment that members of the Palestinian community feel to their home, to their land, the land.

Yeah.

And that is deeply important to them. So when we hear from people in Gaza often they'll say, we don't want to leave, even if there are airstrikes mean even if we're hearing warnings of another offensive coming closer, we will stay. We're not leaving.

Because it's kind of symbolic, right? It's it's. But even more than just themselves.

Yeah, absolutely. Oh, people. I mean, the idea of a voluntary, withdrawal or movement of Palestinian people from Gaza is one thing. There have been suggestions of a forced movement of Palestinians from Gaza, perhaps across the Egyptian border. That has certainly been suggested by, far right members of the Israeli government that would completely negate any potential for a viable Palestinian state, be that under a two state solution or whatever solution you want to put forward. And that is exactly why many Palestinians, but also, other regional leaders and other Arabs are really against the idea of a forced movement. And of course, that that would, you know, violate a number of rights amongst the Palestinians as well. But that is the primary idea that that they are so deeply connected to that land that they wouldn't leave even if there are continued airstrikes. And we were hearing that from Palestinians in Jerusalem who are receiving medical treatment. Now, we're also hearing that from, Palestinians from Gaza who were detained in in Jerusalem after October 7th because their permits had run out. They were Palestinian workers. They were all saying, we want to go back. You know, the war is ongoing, but we want to be with our families. We want to be in our homes. We want to be back in our towns. And you know, it. It's it's a strong message.

We'll be right back. Welcome back to Tug of War. We're listening to my conversation with CNN's Not a Bashir, recorded live at the Cascade PBS Ideas Festival earlier this month. You mentioned kind of putting questions to the Israeli military when we're doing these stories. They've been a less than, you know, reliable narrator of certain key events that have gone on. So how do you take that into consideration when we're trying to get their response to a strike that happened or something like that? Yeah.

I mean, it's a daily process. We have a huge team of producers and journalists who are frequently putting these questions to the Israeli military. We have to provide coordinates of these exact geolocated. Exactly. So we have a huge, team who geo locate these specific airstrikes, provide the coordinates, send them to the Israeli military for confirmation of whether or not an airstrike took place. Sometimes they are able to provide information. Sometimes they do not provide a response. We're dealing with a military that is engaged in an active war. So whether it's the Israeli military or any military, we have to take that into consideration. What that means. What sort of narratives might be at play here? You know, when we hear from the Israeli military telling us that they are letting aid in, but we're seeing video of soldiers obstructing aid from getting in. We have to tell that story. We have to be clear and transparent in the fact that while we are receiving these statements from the Israeli military, it may stand in contrast to what we're seeing on the ground.

Evidence on the ground.

Exactly. And that's our job, right? To highlight those contrasts.

On the same front. How should we think about Hamas then? You know, they've been deemed a terrorist organization by the US and Europe. And obviously, the October 7th attacks were completely heinous and horrific. So but they are still kind of in control of Gaza and how things are kind of run there. So how do we think about those kind of interactions?

Well, look, Hamas has been in a position of leadership in Gaza since 2006. So before the war began, well before the war began. And so a lot of the government institutions that are responsible for the running of the Gaza Strip fall under Hamas's authority. This is an authority which has worked for years now, in conjunction with various UN agencies, to ensure the daily running of what is happening in Gaza. So it is considered a terrorist organization. It has a military wing, an armed wing, which of course has continues to be engaged in fighting with the Israeli military, are responsible for the October 7th attacks. And for multiple rocket launches into Israeli territory as well. But that is, I think, when we're talking about, the running of the Gaza Strip, necessarily, we almost have to treat them separately, because since 2006, there has been no other governing body in Gaza. Right. So when we're trying to get information from the Health ministry, for example, to frame that, as, you know, a wing of a terrorist organization I think is inaccurate. And I know a lot of us were doing that. So the early weeks of the war were we would specifically frame any death toll updates, as you know, updates from the Hamas run health ministry. And that caused a lot of issues, a lot of debate as well, about how we were dealing with this organization, how we were dealing with those updates, when in reality, the Health ministry, works very closely with various humanitarian organizations and UN organizations. The UN itself has said repeatedly now that this figures for many years now have been largely reliable. So yes, we're dealing with an organization that is considered by the US, the European Union and many others as a terrorist organization. But we're also dealing with a group that is the only governing body in Gaza, a group that, for many Palestinians is considered a resistance movement. And also important to remember, there are many Palestinians in Gaza who do not support Hamas, who haven't had a chance to vote in democratic elections, who do not support the attacks of October 7th, who do not want to see this war being carried out. And so it's there's a lot of nuance here. And so painting it as sort of one thing is, is very difficult.

Yeah, I think that's like a big theme of this entire conflict. Right. There's just a ton of nuance. Yeah, a lot of complication. Like I think of the Israeli people as well. You know, our colleague Clarissa Ward has told me many times, they're not a monolith when it comes to how they react to this. Like we've seen some Israeli protesters blocking aid trucks. Yeah, because they just want the hostages back. But there are people who don't subscribe to that. And there and like on these college campuses, there are Jewish students who are involved in these encampments as well. So yeah. Yeah, it's just I don't envy you trying to gut to tell these stories on a daily basis.

'Well, I think. For a long time, the Israel-Palestine conflict has been painted as a very black and white two sides conflict. You often hear people say, oh, it's too complicated. Don't talk about it. But I think this is really brought it back into the headlines, of course. And yet there are a huge amount of layers and different dynamics at play, as you mentioned, particularly within the Israeli population. We've seen huge protests taking place against, Benjamin Netanyahu's government. We've seen many protesters calling for the government to focus less on bombing Gaza more, and trying to bring the hostages home. There are others who support the war who see this as a way of bringing the hostages home. When we were in, Jerusalem in the occupied West Bank, we met with many Israelis who believe that the Israeli government, is carrying out practices and policies which are discriminatory against the Palestinians who support the idea of, you know, a Palestinian state alongside an Israeli.

And they're not on board with the extremist settlers, of course.

Exactly. And again, you've got the settler issue as well. That's a very clear issue, which has also drawn opposition from within the Israeli population as well. So there are certainly different dynamics at play here. And to treat the situation in Gaza as the same as the situation in the West Bank or is in Israel proper, is, of course, an oversimplification of what the state of affairs is there. There has been a lot of tension over the last few years. And the situation seems to only be getting worse. And I think there's a lot of context, a lot of history that has to be considered when you're discussing anything with regards to what's happening. Yeah.

With that idea of people who say, it's too complicated, I don't want I don't want to even think about this. How do you navigate that when you're trying to cover the news and put out content, for lack of a better word, that will draw people in and maybe educate them and yeah, keep the conversation going.

I think there's a lot of fear and a lot of misunderstanding. I think a lot of people fear offending certain communities or groups, whatever side that may be on. I think there's a lot of misunderstanding about what is actually happening. And I think what we really need to focus on is the fact these are all human beings that we're talking about. We're talking about very basic human rights issues. We're talking about very basic, democratic issues as well that are at play, not necessarily with regards to Gaza specifically, but when we talk about what's happening in the occupied West Bank, for example, we've seen a huge spike in violence since October 7th. We're not seeing a full war being played out in the occupied West Bank, but we are seeing these significant, severe human rights violations that have been documented by many human rights organizations that have been documented by the US State Department most recently. And these are all issues which are connected to what is happening in Gaza. The discontent, the frustration that we saw in Gaza pre October 7th as a result of, you know, an almost 20 year land, sea and air blockade is very deeply linked to the deep sense of frustration and distress that we're seeing in the occupied West Bank as we continue to see ongoing raids and violence and the persecution of the Palestinian people, and a system which, you know, many organizations, including UN experts, Human Rights Watch, amnesty, have described as a system of apartheid. So we're talking about very serious issues here that have been at play long before October 7th. But of course, predominantly now the focus is on the war, but you can't take away that context. And so, yes, at first glance it may be complicated, but it's our job to try and tell those stories and to try and present those stories in a way which includes the context in a way which, you know, brings forward the important nuances, history and layers that are needed to understand what is happening in Gaza now.

Do you think that people are starting to pick up on those nuances, like, has it been like, is that stuff kind of making it through? Or do you think the the passion behind all this is still just too much to break through?

'I think so. I think people are beginning to have more broader discussions about what is actually happening, not just, you know, with their friends and families, but, you know, you see it in government statements, you see it in, discussions being had a more, you know, from within government, within other institutions. You know, the fact that we are seeing international members of the international community even beginning to discuss questions of whether a genocide is taking place in Gaza. We're seeing, you know, legal cases being brought forward about what is happening. In the occupied West Bank. Questions around the expansion of settlements. These are discussions that are being had by members of the international community in a very public way. And that wasn't necessarily happening before October 7th. But we're also seeing people who are, you know, sharing updates and news on social media who are sharing, you know, educational updates on social media. And so there is a lot of learning that is going on. I think a lot of people, perhaps for the first time, are trying to educate themselves on what is actually at play in the occupied West Bank in particular and in Gaza. But again, we're seeing that generational shift as well. Things are very different now to how they were ten, 20, 30 years ago. And we're seeing that in the student movements. You know, we're hearing from a lot of students who are saying, as you mentioned, that they weren't necessarily active members of, you know, pro-Palestine society or whatever it may be on college campuses, but that their response to the war and their feeling of not wanting to see this war play out, wanting a ceasefire has led them to then try and learn more about what is happening there.

Right. So switching gears a bit for for those listening at home or I've never seen you on TV, you're wearing a hijab and you're seeing this first. You've seen as first staff reported to wear one on air. How does that impact? You know, when you're out in the field doing your job? Yeah. How people respond to questions you're asking.

Yeah. I mean, look, my experience has been largely positive. But it's a very clear identifier of perhaps, you know, obviously religious background, but also perhaps cultural background as well. And so you're not often given the luxury of being treated as an entirely objective journalist, which can be very frustrating.

I can imagine.

So, you know, you wouldn't necessarily question having an older white man standing outside Downing Street. Right. But if I'm in the Middle East, there are questions around my objectivity whether or not I have a personal allegiance to, you know, whatever side or story I'm telling.

How do you push past that?

I just focus on my job. Really. I mean, it's not hard. Our job is to focus on the facts, to tell the story accurately and fairly. And. And that's what I try to do. And, you know, you'll always get comments, not just me, but anyone who works in this industry I think will get that sort of, you know, feed feedback with regards to whatever it is. I've had that a lot, for example, with covering the protests in Iran. You know, women, of course, bravely protesting their right to dress, how they wish to dress, to not be told, you know, what they can and can't wear, removing their hijabs, which is their right to do. And yet, coming under fierce crackdown by the Iranian regime and many women losing their lives. And that was an important story for me. And I covered that for many weeks, months. And yet there was a lot of questions around whether it was appropriate for me to to cover that story. As a woman who was a hijab.

Just I mean, I thought it was rich the other day that Iran was kind of coming out in solidarity with campus protests. Yes, in the U.S., just their history of all that. It's like, yeah, come on.

There's a selective, approach to which rights we support and which rights we don't currently in Iran's case, and also in other cases as well.

Sure, sure. Tell me a little bit about how you got started in journalism.

So my first journalism job was actually at CNN as an intern. But I had decided that I wanted to do journalism when I was about 15, but this was kind of the job I wanted to go into, because it was around that time that the Arab Spring broke up. My family is originally from Libya, which of course was engulfed in protests and later a civil war as a result of the Arab Spring. So it was a deeply personal story for me. You know, I was about that time that we were starting to see the movement of citizen journalism on Twitter and things like that. So that was a big moment for me where I kind of realized, oh, actually, this is something that I would quite like to do.

I mean, that's interesting. I wonder if in this moment, as people in the region are seeing this happen. Might have the same idea to go into journalism, get the message out, that kind of thing potentially.

But I'm also seeing a lot of disillusionment I think with mainstream media. You know the time of relying on major news outlets as your only source of information or you're only window into these sorts of conflict zones is long gone. People are seeing what is happening on the ground firsthand on social media. And I think there are a lot of questions, often valid questions about the way in which mainstream media. And it's approach stories. And that might be a case of us trying to evolve and to reshape and rethink the way we tell stories. But also, I think it's a question of, you know, how we approach the storytelling in terms of how we think about our audiences as well. What do they know? What are we taking for granted, that sort of thing?

Interesting. Do you find that when you're out in the field, you say, I'm with CNN, you get a certain kind of response from folks.

You know, depends on on where you are in the world. But, you know, certainly in the first few weeks of the war in Gaza, there were many people who didn't want to speak to us. You know, we would be reporting from from Jordan, from Lebanon, from Egypt. And for the first time in my career at CNN, I had people saying, no, I don't want to speak to you. I don't want to speak to CNN. Because they felt that our coverage hadn't been fair, hadn't been accurate, hadn't told the story as they felt it should have been told. And I think, you know, for many, particularly when it comes to Gaza, there have been questions around how the story is told. The language that we're using, many accusations or rather many people saying that they feel that the Palestinian people have been somewhat dehumanized, that their experience has been diminished by mainstream media outlets. And as these mainstream media outlets, as journalists, we have to reflect on that. We have to look at our work and where we have made mistakes in order to then make those improvements. And we've seen that. I mean, there's been, you know, real discussions and debate about how we do our jobs, how we tell these stories. And that can only be a good thing to have these open discussions and to really think about the way we work.

Yeah, it's like I we've seen that on the campus protests as well that students do not want to say anything. Yeah, to the media because they don't want their words twisted. You can understand that. But you also need to ask the questions and get some answers.

'Yeah. I think, you know, with the with the college campus protests, there has been a tendency for these protests to be painted as inherently violent and hateful in mainstream media outlets, and that simply isn't the case. I mean, we've heard from protesters on the ground, many have told us that they are, you know, protesting peacefully. We've seen the occupation of university campus buildings. That is not new. You know, we've seen college protests before. This is not any movement. The the student, you know, pro-Palestine movement is certainly not a new movement. It's been around for decades. And there are fringe elements of these protests that are violent, that are perhaps anti-Semitic. We've seen that, and it's our job to report on that, of course, but it's also our job to reflect what is happening fairly and accurately. And that is not what we're seeing in terms of the overwhelming majority of protesters. And so I think that's where we see the tension in terms of people, you know, respecting and listening to what mainstream media outlets are saying, because what they're hearing on TV doesn't necessarily translate to what they're seeing on the ground or they see around them. And when we speak to students and they say, well, look, I've been in this encampment for five days, all right? It's very.

Peaceful. Where exactly we're doing poetry.

Exactly. And it's and it's a movement which is, you know, brought people together of all faiths, including the Jewish faith, which I think is an important part of this protest movement of all walks of life. Community leaders, educators, professors have been part of this protest movement. And it has largely been peaceful until, of course, we've seen that very heavy handed crackdown by law enforcement. So there were very, you know, there are various elements of the story that we need to cover. We need to cover them all accurately and fairly. But when we start to shift into this sort of reactive, breaking news mode of, you know, these are hateful, violent protests, yeah, that can alienate a lot of people. Yeah.

Yeah. So as this conflict kind of continues on, whatever form it does over these next couple of weeks and months, as you reflect on the last seven months or so, what are you going to take with you as you continue to do the job?

'I think this last seven months of covering the war in Gaza has really shown me, as a journalist, how important it is to not just follow the the narrative, the rhetoric that we have necessarily followed for years. You know, it's our job to challenge what we're seeing. We're hearing it's not just to go along with, you know, whatever statements we're getting from whatever government bodies. But to think critically, to push back when we need to. And to accurately paint a picture of what is happening on the ground, whether or not we're able to get access. And I think for a long time, in particular, the Israel-Palestine conflict, as we said, has been treated as too complicated, as though, you know, it's too hard to get into. But I think what we've seen over the last few months, particularly amongst many of my colleagues, is a real effort to try and push back and to try and say, look, there is a lot of nuance, a lot of layers, but it's our job to distill those layers, and it's our job to tell the stories fairly as we can. And that may be difficult. It may not please the entire audience, but we need to tell the truth. That is the core element of our job.

Yeah. And I think to your point earlier, a lot of the Palestinian journalists on the ground are doing a lot of that legwork that can get places like ours in a space to kind of do that and tell those real human stories.

Absolutely. And there is so much to be learned from the Palestinian journalists on the ground in Gaza, so much their bravery, their dedication, their resilience. I mean, I have found nothing more inspiring than the work of Palestinian journalists on the ground. And we are so deeply reliant on their work to bear witness to what is happening, because we can't get access. But, you know, their work can't be taken for granted. These are incredibly brave, diligent journalists, and we are so very lucky to be able to work with them. Yeah.

Well, we'll leave the conversation there. Not a thank you so much. Thank you. And thank you all for coming. Appreciate it.

Tug of War is a production of CNN Audio. This episode was produced by Paola Ortiz and me, David Rind. Our senior producer is Haley Thomas. Dan Dzula is our technical director, and Steve Lickteig is the executive producer of CNN Audio. We get support from Alex Manasseri, Robert Mathers, John Dianora, Leni Steinhart, Jamus Andrest, Nichole Pesaru, and Lisa Namerow. Special thanks to Caroline Patterson, Jake Newman and Anne O'Dowd and Katie Hinman. We'll have another episode next week on Wednesday. I will talk to you then.