Scribble

David Rind

00:00:00

Last week, we talked about how the US State Department was preparing a big report, a report that would say whether Israel has violated international law while using U.S. weapons to conduct its war in Gaza, and whether Secretary of State Antony Blinken believed Israel's assurances. Well, on Friday afternoon, just as the weekend was about to begin.

Erica Hill

00:00:27

Breaking news it is reasonable to assess that Israel's war in Gaza has violated international law.

David Rind

00:00:33

Blinken sent that report to Congress.

Erica Hill

00:00:35

That report says in part, quote, while Israel has the knowledge, experience and tools to implement best practices for mitigating civilian harm in its military operations, the results on the ground, including high levels of civilian casualties, raise substantial questions as to whether the IDF is using them effectively in all cases.

David Rind

00:00:54

To some critics, there was a kind of verbal gymnastics on display in this document, as it basically said. Yep, it's pretty likely that American weapons are being used in a way that's inconsistent with international law. But we're not saying Israel officially violated said laws here, even though they are the ones firing the weapons. It also did not find that Israel has withheld humanitarian aid to Gaza, a claim most humanitarian groups on the ground find questionable at best. So while it doesn't recommend or trigger any policy changes, it is yet another pain point in the US Israel relationship. And in recent days, as Israeli protesters take to the streets. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has signaled that if they have to take the fight to Hamas alone, they will. But amidst all of this, the bombing and gunfire continue in Gaza, with Palestinian women and children often paying the price. You know, we've talked so much, though about the death and the injuries, but what happens to those who do manage to survive? What does that healing process look like?

Sara Sirgany

00:02:11

They have been snapped out of what they saw there because they're still living it.

David Rind

00:02:17

Today, a look at if the wounds of this war can ever be healed. From CNN, This is Tug of War and David Rind. Today I'm joined by CNN correspondent Jomana Karadsheh, who's in London, and CNN field producer Sara Sirgany, who's in Jerusalem. We spoke on Tuesday, and I started by asking Sara to give us an update on the military operations in Rafah.

Sara Sirgany

00:02:46

So this week actually started with evacuation orders for people in eastern and central Rafah. And what we've seen is people actually in mass leaving these areas, obviously, which is where the majority of people that have been displaced. About 1.5 million people have fled to over the course of the war, and now they're going into other areas.

David Rind

00:03:07

And it seems like the military operation in Rafah, even though Israel says it's still limited at this point, like we haven't seen the full scale incursion. The Israeli military is still operating in these other areas where they had previously said they had cleared out Hamas. So like, what's up with that?

Sara Sirgany

00:03:26

And it goes to show what is the objective of this war and if it is achievable. So the you have one operation in one side of Gaza and, and it's declared by Israel as it's cleared and they're moving on to another area and then fight and then go in again, reigniting fighting in the area. And people caught in the middle are those civilians, some who have left northern Gaza again this week, while others are still in the areas they fled to before. And we've been seeing these massive airstrikes, massive explosions and also the fighting, the ongoing combat that's happening, in these areas.

David Rind

00:04:07

Right. As we've said time and again, you know, and it's and civilians are paying the price in the middle of all this conflict, especially women and children. So Jumana tell me about that, because we know hospital facilities in Gaza are dealing with these horrific conditions, if they're even standing at all at this point. So for those who are seriously injured and need actual medical care, like where do they go at this point? I know you both recently went to a special hospital in Doha, Qatar to talk to survivors, right?

Jomana Karadsheh

00:04:38

Well, you know, David, as you mentioned, the majority of Gaza's health system has been decimated by this war. And you barely have hospitals that are still functioning where people can receive the treatment they need. And so you have, seen over the past few months, since the war began, these attempts to try and evacuate as many people outside the country for medical treatment. But it's not a simple and easy process. And so in this one ward where we spent a day in every single room on that floor, you have these heartbreaking stories after heartbreaking stories. And one of those was a 23 year old English teacher, Shahed

Jomana Karadsheh

00:05:33

Shahed, first of all, how are you feeling now?

Shahed

00:05:34

Fine. Alhamdulillah. Good. Yes. Good.

Jomana Karadsheh

00:05:38

And and, you know, you walk into her room and she's sitting there and she's smiling and she's very welcoming, and she talks to you, and it takes you some time to realize the pain that she's dealing with and what she has actually gone through. And the more details she starts revealing about her story, the more shocking it becomes for us listening to this.

Shahed

00:06:04

'Before the war, like a week before the war, we both everything for the baby, every clothes, every single. T-shirts. Pink, pink, pink, pink. And, we was we were very excited.

Jomana Karadsheh

00:06:21

And she was expecting her first baby. She was married to 27 year old university professor. The love of her life. She was seven months pregnant when the war started. And she was describing how excited they were. They chose a name for their baby. They were going to name her Sham. And on October 11th, a strike hits their home. And she says it happened all of a sudden. And next thing you know, they found themselves out on the street, covered in blood.

Shahed

00:06:56

When I saw myself on the street, I looked at myself. I see that, there is no leg. Yeah. I looked, like, shocked. Yes. And here is, blood. Blood and here blood and here blood. And, my husband, like, is in front of me.

Jomana Karadsheh

00:07:15

And she lost her leg. Ali, her husband lost both his legs and his arm. And she says the last thing that she remembers is they were calling each other's names, checking to see if they both made it.

Shahed

00:07:30

And he looked and asked me, where is my hand? What is my hand like that? And I looked at him like, and, and Ashoke, I can't my, you know, I can't speak anything at that time.

Jomana Karadsheh

00:07:42

I and then they were transported in ambulances to the hospital, and Ali didn't make it. She hides in hospital dealing with her serious injuries. And two days later, on October 13th, she went into labor. And she delivered her baby girl. It was a stillbirth. The baby arrived dead.

Shahed

00:08:10

After that. It's really hard. Yeah, I mean, very hard that because, this is like my everything, you know, my everything. This is my everything, suddenly disappeared. Yeah.

Jomana Karadsheh

00:08:25

And not only did she lose her husband, her child, and, her leg and the serious injuries she's ended up with, she was in Shifa hospital, David. And we all know what happened in Shifa hospital that came under siege.

David Rind

00:08:44

Right? The Israelis basically surrounded it and didn't let anybody leave.

Jomana Karadsheh

00:08:49

Exactly. And so she was within that hospital. She was amongst the patients who were in there, for a couple of weeks. She said that they were struggling without, you know, enough food or water. And then finally, she was amongst the hundreds of patients who were forced out. What the IDF said at the time was this evacuation order.

Shahed

00:09:09

So, we think that they will bring like the, ambulance or something like that, but they didn't bring, anything. So, I went from Shifa Hospital to Rafah by the wheelchair. Yes, by the wheelchair.

Jomana Karadsheh

00:09:26

But they go out, there's no ambulances to transport them. Her father had to push her on a wheelchair for hours to get to Rafah.

David Rind

00:09:34

Wow.

Jomana Karadsheh

00:09:34

And hours and hours and hours and a journey in the dark. I mean, the details of it are just just unimaginable what they went through. And she talks about bleeding on the way as she's going over all these bumpy roads and on a wheelchair to get to a different city in, in Gaza. And by the time they got there, her father had to change her dressing change, you know, and deal with her wounds because they couldn't even go into hospitals because she said, if I go into hospitals, I will die because of the situation in the hospitals then. And, you know, now she's receiving treatment in Qatar. She's hoping to get a prosthetic limb at some point and something you hear from others.

Jomana Karadsheh

00:10:16

How do you keep smiling?

Shahed

00:10:19

Well, what should I do?

Jomana Karadsheh

00:10:21

But when you ask her and we answer that question, how is it that you're still smiling? And she says it's what people see. But when she's on her own, she says there's this pain inside her that will never go away.

Shahed

00:10:36

Like no one will feel the the pain here. Like I'm in it with my. With the people. Strong, happy like laughing. But when I am, like, alone, I feel something painful here. I cannot be healed from that. And I cannot be, I can, I can't forget this. This is something that can't be forgotten. It's very hard.

Jomana Karadsheh

00:11:01

Even if you recover, even after treatment.

Shahed

00:11:04

I think this will stay with me for all my all my all my life.

David Rind

00:11:12

I mean, it's just so heartbreaking. And it also strikes me that when you were telling that story, like, this strike happened in October and this is Mae, and she's just now in a proper hospital getting the treatment she needs. And she was lucky enough to have her father be able to take care of her in the limited way that he could during that time. But there are so many that just have none of that and any kind of hope for proper physical recovery, let alone mental, is just not in the cards.

Jomana Karadsheh

00:11:43

It's not. And I mean, we are only seeing just the tip of the iceberg, if you will. Right? When we're talking to these patients, these people who, for lack of a better word, the lucky ones who have made it out and they're receiving their treatment and you see how, yes, while they are getting the proper medical treatment they need, they don't actually like you can't imagine how they are going to recover from all that they have been through, specially as the war is still going on, especially as they are separated from loved ones and family who are inside Gaza, especially as they are still worried about the loved ones who were there. I mean, there are so many levels to this and you know, you just talk to people and it it's just hard to put into words what they're going through.

David Rind

00:12:39

We'll be right back.

00:12:53

Welcome back to Tug of War. I'm speaking with CNN's Jomana Karadsheh and Sara Sirgany.

00:13:00

Sarah, that separation that, you know, still worrying about people left behind. Well, how does that manifest for the people you met?

Sara Sirgany

00:13:09

We've been covering Gaza remotely through stringers and amazing photojournalists that are there. But what that allowed us is just to sit down when there is a bit of at least geographical separation from the world where they can talk and remember and take the time to remember and the safety, there's nothing hovering above that would end the conversation our lives. But it's only a relative safety because their minds, their hearts are still very much in Gaza with their families stuck there.

Nats

00:13:40

Woman Arabic

00:13:42

We've talked to several women who say they just cannot sleep in a bed, while they know some of their children are sleeping on it in a tent, on on the ground somewhere, or they are actually not sure if they have a roof over their head...

David Rind

00:13:55

You're saying they're depriving themselves of sleep in a proper bed because they just don't think it's fair?

Sara Sirgany

00:14:00

It's not, it's not. They can't. I don't think it's an issue of fairness as much as in ability to even do this.

Nats

00:14:08

Woman speaking Arabic

00:14:11

Some are horrified that they're being offered food. And we've been to some kitchens where their food was just sitting at the kitchen. They cannot make themselves eat because, they know one of their kids is out there. Another family member is probably starving. They know that, some of their families have only survived on a loaf of bread for for a few days, so they're unable to eat unless they reach a point where they are told by doctors they have to eat but to take their medication or they're actually almost starving.

Nats

00:14:44

woman speaking Arabic

Sara Sirgany

00:14:45

Members. And we've seen it over and over again. So it's not like the trauma is following them. They haven't recovered, they haven't snapped out of what they saw there because they're still living it.

Nats

00:14:58

And David, can we just set the scene of where we saw all this? Right. So what the countries have done is they've turned the, this compound that was built for World Cup fans into housing, for Gaza evacuees. And you've got this gated community that we found to be a bit of a microcosm of Gaza. And you walk in there and the first thing that struck us sort out, I mean, we talked about this so much. You walk in and everywhere you look you see these children going past you missing an arm, missing a leg, missing both arms, both legs. And it's just shocking to see it in that one space and one place. And you think about how many other children who are still trapped in Gaza.

Sara Sirgany

00:15:55

We've talked to children with amputations, and one Ned is seven. His has an amputation below the knee. His mom actually came after us, telling us, please talk to him. I want someone to talk to him because he doesn't. He doesn't want to talk about what happened. And his face darkened as soon as he realized what she was doing. And for me to hear the story, we had to step away from him and pretend that we're talking about something else so that she can tell me what happened. And it was horrifying. And I'm sorry if, like, what I'm going to say is a bit graphic, but, he was with his father when the airstrike happened. He lost his leg. His father had a lot of injuries. The father survived as well. But at the moment, they thought that both of them were dying. So they hoped. And as if this is their last hope. When rescuers came for them, they found his leg to his side. So they put it next to him as they transfer him to the hospital. And it did not end there. The lack of painkillers meant that he was in agony most of the time. Hospitals would give them would sort of rush in the painkillers they have in there. Nothing as strong. What's needed for this type of injury, which means that everyone around them is screaming only at night when they get the painkillers, this thing stop. So you can imagine just they don't want to revisit that at all. And it just lives inside them all the time.

Shahed

00:17:27

So yeah.

Mahmoud

00:17:27

Mahmoud speaking

Jomana Karadsheh

00:17:29

Another child we also spoke to, Mahmoud was the same. He did not want to sit down with us because he did not want to talk about that day. And I said, I do not want to talk to you about that day. I don't want to hear about that. I want to talk to you. I want to hear what you want to do in life. You know what you want in the future. And and he loved it.

Mahmoud

00:17:52

Mahmoud speaking

Jomana Karadsheh

00:17:54

He was really excited to talk about that. But he did not want to talk about how he was injured and what he went through. And so we would get those details from their mother. So you can imagine they haven't yet started to deal with the psychological impact of what these children have gone through.

David Rind

00:18:15

Yeah. I mean, you know, we've seen this in other conflicts as well, maybe not quite on the scale, but the, the psychological impacts that go forward. Like what does that do to somebody as they, you know, try to just grow up in this way?

Sara Sirgany

00:18:31

I think this is the question we're posing to everyone. And some of these questions, what we're getting is that people are trying to deal with it. One of the things they're doing in the community is try to provide them with a space, either art therapy or embroidery for women, just to provide them with a space like a routine of when things are going to happen. One of them is the physical scars as well, which is very difficult. So Mahmood, that Jumana has talked about has lost both of his arms because they're kids. They cannot get the static limbs fitted in completely until they're 18. So they're going to have new ones refitted every couple of years, but they won't be able to be fully functioning until much later. My wood is very resilient. He he's mastered playing a video game on his phone just by his tools. So he rested on a special scooter that they got. And actually all the kids were pointing me to just like, look at him go see my kids, see how he he's so good with this video game. He's excellent. And I was just looked at this Mahmood and found this. It's took this kid without arms who has mastered the game, So it's a mix of the psychological trauma, but also the everyday challenges of surviving with life altering injuries.

David Rind

00:19:51

I'm curious how they see where they left Gaza, their their home and what they think about the prospects of ever going back there or just associating a place they lived with so much death and destruction and pain. Like, do they do they want to go back?

Jomana Karadsheh

00:20:08

So David one. Of the reasons we went to Doha was Sara and I, back in October, in the early days of the war, were doing, reports on children who were injured in the war, who ended up in hospitals. And one of those pieces, there were a brother and sister who had been injured, and they were in, a hospital room there. Great. On to a sitting bear. The young girl, 13, was unconscious at the time, and her brother Keenan was barely conscious. And, they didn't know at that point that they were the only ones from their entire family who survived. They lost 70 members of their family. Extended family.

David Rind

00:20:55

70.

Jomana Karadsheh

00:20:56

Grandparents on both sides, uncles, aunts, cousins, nieces. I mean, the entire family, had moved to what they thought was a safe location and that got bombed. And then recently we found out they were in Doha. So we went to meet them there.

Dereen

00:21:13

Dereen Giggling

00:21:15

And Dereen turned 11 recently. And she has had several surgeries. She was in a wheelchair for a while and she started walking again. She's going through physiotherapy and her five year old brother, Keenan is also recovering, from his injuries as well. And this is the story, David, of nearly 20,000 children that the UN estimates have lost their parents in this war, where you have members of the extended family who take in these orphaned children and they take care of them. And we saw that with this 65 year old great aunt who now they call Tata or Grandma, and she's taking care of them. And we sit there and talking to Dereen and 11 year old David about what she's going through, what she's gone through. And you realize that this war has forced children to grow beyond their years.

Dereen

00:22:12

Speaking arabic

Jomana Karadsheh

00:22:17

The way she speaks about life, the way she speaks about what has happened to them, what is happening right now, and talking about Gaza, like you asked, what happens now? What's going to happen next? And she says, Gaza is no longer Gaza. It is now a ghost town.

Jomana Karadsheh

00:22:35

Now, Jonathan Israel, I still don't feel like.

Jomana Karadsheh

00:22:39

I want to go back. But what am I going back to? And this is an 11 year old speaking. And then at the same time, you have the child that comes out every now and then when you're speaking to her where she says, I miss, you know, my princess themed room that my dad made for me, or my mom's cooking

Dereen

00:23:00

speaking arabic

Jomana Karadsheh

00:23:02

I now realize that I'm an orphan because my mom and my dad are not there for me to give them a kiss before I go to school in the morning. And. She sits there constantly looking through her phone. And she tells us that she's doing that because she wants to look at their photos. It's what she does when she misses her family. And then an 11 year old David, in the middle of this interview. Speaking to her uncle in Gaza just breaks down. It's the first time during those couple of days that we spent with her where we saw her crying.

Child

00:23:42

Child crying.

00:23:44

She wants to get him and his family out of Gaza. And you feel that, you know, you've got the weight, the whole world on the shoulders of this child who now feels that she needs to save and rescue everyone around her, because now she understands loss and death and grief, and she's trying to save those who are left. And I mean, it's absolutely devastating. And this is one child out of about 20,000 children who are dealing with this. And again, unfortunately, the majority of them are still inside Gaza, not being able to deal with what they've gone through.

David Rind

00:24:22

Yeah, like we've said, just a snapshot and a much larger picture. Sara, Jomana, thank you.

Jomana Karadsheh

00:24:28

Thank you.

Sara Sirgany

00:24:28

Thank you for having us.

David Rind

00:24:43

Tug of War is a production of CNN Audio. This episode was produced by PaolaOrtiz and me, David Rind. Our senior producer is Haley Thomas. Dan Dzula is our technical director. And Steve Lickteig, is the executive producer of CNN Audio. We get support from Alex Manasseri, Robert Mathers, John Dianora, Leni Steinhart, Jamus Andrest, Nichole Pesaru, and Lisa Namerow. Special thanks to Caroline Patterson and Katie Hinman. We'll be back next week on Wednesday with a regular episode. But in the meantime, we're going to have a special conversation for you on Friday. So check right back here on Friday for that. Talk to you later.