podcast
The Axe Files with David Axelrod
David Axelrod, the founder and director of the University of Chicago Institute of Politics, and CNN bring you The Axe Files, a series of revealing interviews with key figures in the political world. Go beyond the soundbites and get to know some of the most interesting players in politics.
Ep. 602 — Chris LaCivita
The Axe Files with David Axelrod
Nov 21, 2024
Chris LaCivita, GOP campaign pro and mastermind behind some of the party’s most ruthless yet effective political ads, says he focuses on a simple mandate—getting his boss elected. In the weeks following his successful stint as co-manager of Donald Trump’s 2024 campaign, the former Marine joined David to talk about his upbringing in the Pittsburgh area; how his military experience informs his campaign work; what made Trump’s 2024 campaign different from 2016 and 2020; and his take on the impact of trans rights, abortion, and Joe Biden on the 2024 presidential race.
Episode Transcript
Intro
00:00:05
And now from the Institute of Politics at the University of Chicago and CNN Audio, The Axe Files, with your host, David Axelrod.
David Axelrod
00:00:16
'Chris LaCivita, a decorated Marine Corps veteran, found his passion three decades ago on the battlefield of politics. He gained a reputation over the years as a savvy, detailed oriented operative and a take no prisoners strategist and ad man. His resumé includes the notorious 2004 Swift Boat Veterans for Truth ads against John Kerry so impactful that Swift Boating became a verb synonymous with slashing negative media. Earlier this month, LaCivita won his biggest battle as co-manager of Donald Trump's historic reelection campaign. In this week, I sat down with LaCivita at the Institute of Politics at the University of Chicago to talk about his life, his work and the 2004 campaign. Chris LaCivita, the famous.
Chris LaCivita
00:01:12
Infamous.
David Axelrod
00:01:13
Notorious. Which is probably good for your business. Yes, Probably good for your business. Welcome. Welcome to the Institute of Politics. Good to see you. Before we get into the campaign itself, which is historic and obviously impactful and interesting, I want to talk about you because you've become historic and impactful and interesting. So, yeah, yeah. If this were, if this were on camera, people could see you wince. But I want to ask you. You're From McKeesport, Pennsylvania, which is right outside of Pittsburgh. Talk to me a little bit about your family, your grandparents, both immigrants, all immigrants from Italy and Ireland.
Chris LaCivita
00:01:57
Ireland. Yeah, my dad's family is from Italy. My mom's family's from Ireland. I'm the second oldest of five boys, born and raised in McKeesport, Pennsylvania. Moved to Richmond, Virginia in 1979.
David Axelrod
00:02:09
Well, before we get to Richmond, just let me ask you about your family. Tell me, do your grandparents, were, you knew your grandparents?
Chris LaCivita
00:02:15
My dad's side, I only knew my grandmother. She died when I was ten.
David Axelrod
00:02:19
When did they come over?
Chris LaCivita
00:02:22
My dad's family, it was right around I was like 19, I want to say early 20s, right after the first World War.
David Axelrod
00:02:33
That's when my family and my father came over in the early 1920s. Yeah. And in your mom's family?
Chris LaCivita
00:02:39
My, my my mom's family was a little later. It was probably the late 20s, early 30s. Yeah. From Ireland.
David Axelrod
00:02:46
And what's your grandfather do?
Chris LaCivita
00:02:48
My grandfather. My Italian grandfather worked on the Pennsylvania Railroad, and he was the only one of the, very few people, as family legend has it, on their entire street block That worked during the Great Depression. And so they basically ran a neighborhood soup kitchen for everybody that was living in this particular area. And then my my mom's, my mom's father, my my Irish grandfather, massive man. Huge hands. It was, you know.
David Axelrod
00:03:24
So this is genetic.
Chris LaCivita
00:03:26
Yeah. He used to race horses and that kind of stuff. But he was the head mechanic for the Philadelphia transit system, and he was. He didn't know a damn thing about being a mechanic, but, you know, managed to get a job on the the trolleys, the old trolley cars, downtown Philly. And he worked on those his entire life. And then his second job to pay off the mortgage was he was a night watchman at the Bubble Yum bubblegum factory because we always had tons of bubble yum when we were kids.
David Axelrod
00:03:58
So a pretty good deal.
Chris LaCivita
00:03:59
Yeah, it was a good deal.
David Axelrod
00:04:01
So you moved to Richmond and your dad was in government, right?
Chris LaCivita
00:04:05
Correct. Well, my dad, in Pittsburgh, he was a PR guy for Equitable Gas, which of course is now Dominion owned by Dominion Energy. But that was the major power, you know, big company in in Pittsburgh at the time. And we moved to Virginia and my dad was working for took a job with Reynolds. And, you know, we moved from Pittsburgh. All our family was in Pittsburgh. We moved to the south, what was considered the south in 78. And of course, the only thing I knew about the South or about Virginia in 1978 was what I saw on The Waltons, you know. And so we were all like, they don't even have a football team. And to us that was like, what no football? There's no hockey? So but when we moved and then my dad was appointed by then Governor Robb.
David Axelrod
00:04:58
Really?
Chris LaCivita
00:04:59
Yeah. When he was the he was the guy.
David Axelrod
00:05:03
Emergency with.
Chris LaCivita
00:05:04
He was like number two in emergency services. Yeah. Yeah. And stayed there his entire career.
David Axelrod
00:05:08
Did you guys talk about politics in the house a lot?
Chris LaCivita
00:05:13
No, we, no, because, you know, it's funny. My my mom was always scared to death of Reagan because she felt that Reagan was going to force her to send her five boys to war. Of course, I ended up doing voluntarily for a Bush. But during the Bush years. But but my mom still ended up voting for him. But I remember that was the one thing that that she was always concerned about. But no, I was not did not grow up in a really a political family at all.
David Axelrod
00:05:44
And you I read somewhere that you your political orientation sort of began that you at least your philosophical orientation about conservatism sort of began in college at VCU.
Chris LaCivita
00:05:58
Virginia Commonwealth University. As some of us would call it, Viet Cong University. But it it you know, the.
David Axelrod
00:06:06
The orientation's seeping through.
Chris LaCivita
00:06:07
Yeah, I mean, it was it was, you know, it's a great school, great liberal arts school. But I, you know, I, I had a little streak in me a little, you know, that I wasn't a conformist, if you will. And so my first year and of course, I was in the Marine Corps, so that that kind.
David Axelrod
00:06:27
Did you enlist.
Chris LaCivita
00:06:27
I was an active duty and then I was in reserves for the vast majority of time. And then I was activated when I was in grad school. Yes.
David Axelrod
00:06:36
I see. I didn't get that sequencing. So you had already enlisted before you went to college?
Chris LaCivita
00:06:41
Yes.
David Axelrod
00:06:41
Yes, I see. Why did you enlist?
Chris LaCivita
00:06:45
You know, my uncle was a Marine and my godfather, Joe Galligan, from the Irish side of the family and a big guy, gregarious guy. And he spent 30 some years in the in the Marine Corps. And I just remember as a kid, you know, when he was in Vietnam, we would always say, please bring Uncle Joe home safe. You know, literally, it's like one of these things I always remember. But and, you know, I just I don't know, I guess I was just predisposed that way. But yeah, I mean, I grew up in a great house. I mean, we did great family, great parents, great brothers, great. You know, I went to Catholic school, raised by German nuns in Pittsburgh and moved to Virginia. It was great, great experience. But but join the military, which I thought was a good thing for me because I was a little I'm like I say, I was wild, but I was I was I was a bit of a hell raiser, mischievous, nothing, nothing crazy.
David Axelrod
00:07:42
I've used that, I've seen those terms used about you even now. But yeah, yeah, yeah.
Chris LaCivita
00:07:47
Just a little bit, Yeah.
David Axelrod
00:07:49
So you didn't go overseas in your first stint in the Marine Corps, but you were activated before the during the Gulf War.
Chris LaCivita
00:07:57
Six years later.
David Axelrod
00:07:58
Of 91, right? Operation Desert Storm.
Chris LaCivita
00:08:01
Right. I was, I was in grad school and I had a high hopes of possibly going into of getting my MBA and going into the administration of government, something like that. And so I was in grad school and was activated. And I remember they came to us and said, Look, if you sign the paper, you can you can stay. Finish. And I'm like, Yeah, no, I'm not, you know. And there were there were more than a handful. I probably at least a dozen of us in our unit that were, that were given that opportunity. And all of us were like, No, we're going. We had 100% retention. Everybody deployed. So yeah, it was a Marine artillery unit.
David Axelrod
00:08:47
January 1, 1991, I guess. But then you with within a few months you were you were wounded.
Chris LaCivita
00:08:55
February 25th, 1991.
David Axelrod
00:08:57
Everybody always remembers that day.
Chris LaCivita
00:09:00
Your alive day.
David Axelrod
00:09:00
Yes, exactly. But what happened?
Chris LaCivita
00:09:03
Like I said, I was in this Marine artillery unit and Hilltop Battery, third Battalion, 14th Marines out of Richmond, Virginia. And we deployed with the first Marines out of Camp Pendleton, California. And our unit was it was the outgoing oil field on that particular day and its oil field in Kuwait. And it was if you wanted to ever have a visualization of what Dante's Inferno looked like, this was it. Imagine rolling in and just there's hundreds of oil wells all around you and they're all on fire. And there are and the ones that aren't on fire just blowing pure oil so loud can't hear yourself think. Blotted out the sun. I mean, it was just miserable. But we ended up engaging enemy Iraqi armor and rocket propelled grenade beaters, multiple launch rocket systems, all the stuff at point blank range with cannons. The cannons shoot 18 miles. We're shooting at targets at 150 yards. So it was kind of a you know, it was a bad day. I got hit with shrapnel from a I guess it was a BTR or a BMP, which is a Russian made armored vehicle with a gun on it. And it shot around. It landed at my feet and just covered me in shrapnel.
David Axelrod
00:10:16
And would have killed you if you weren't wearing a Kevlar.
Chris LaCivita
00:10:20
Well, I had a piece that went through my face, and then I had a piece that stuck in my flak jacket, which was made by DuPont. DuPont, God bless them. That's the first, second maybe iteration of the of the Kevlar jacket. But it shredded it, broke my ribs. So pretty bad day.
David Axelrod
00:10:39
How did that change you?
Chris LaCivita
00:10:41
Well, that experience in itself was was life changing. But the real, I guess, experience was, you know, watching a friend of mine die, you know, there. That was, you know, you know, just one of those things that you that you don't forget. You know, guy in our unit stepped on a mine and our understanding was they had given him a bunch of Coumadin. And then when they brought him back to the rear and we were pulling him off a helicopter and I was with him. They pulled the turniquet off and he ended up bleeding out, because they couldn't stop him. And those are one of the mistakes that are made in combat that then save multiple lives going forward. It's just, you know.
David Axelrod
00:11:18
Yeah, he's the guy who.
Chris LaCivita
00:11:20
He was the guy. So, I mean, and that was that was a harsh dose of reality. But I guess it changed me. It just gives me a different perspective of life and stress and nothing really bothers me. I mean, shit bothers me, right? But. I get pissed off like everybody else. But I kind of I kind of let a lot of stuff roll off my back.
David Axelrod
00:11:47
You came back and you lived with your parents for a while?
Chris LaCivita
00:11:50
Yeah. Yeah.
David Axelrod
00:11:51
Didn't know what you were going to do. Probably a little depressed.
Chris LaCivita
00:11:55
The world. It was funny. I had changed but nothing around me had. Right. I remember I went back, I went home to my parents house and they had my room set up exactly the way it was when I left. It took a lot of time to get used to that. I had, I couldn't sleep. I I was, I was pretty jacked all the time. Yeah. Yeah.
David Axelrod
00:12:18
So let's get to this whole Chris LaCivita as a political animal thing, right. Your dad hooked you up with a county commissioner's race?
Chris LaCivita
00:12:27
Yes. Yeah. Board of Supervisors race. Worked with my dad. He was a planner, an emergency planner, and he wanted to run for the board of Supervisors, which is, you know, county commissioner. So I did his race. It was a Republican nomination. It was called a canvass.
David Axelrod
00:12:40
This was this guy, Art Ward.
Chris LaCivita
00:12:42
Yeah. Yeah. And and it was funny because it was a Republican nomination, but it was highly contested. It was in a Republican area in suburbs of Richmond and Chesterfield County. And, you know, I just had boundless energy.
David Axelrod
00:12:57
And you didn't know. You didn't know shit about politics?
Chris LaCivita
00:13:00
I didn't know shit about politics. But I knew I knew how to organize. I knew how to work. I knew how to.
David Axelrod
00:13:06
And how much did the military experience help in that?
Chris LaCivita
00:13:09
A lot. I mean, it just. It just. It just. Here's your job. Here's your mission. Show up and do it. And don't. The word can't doesn't exist. And the consultant on the race was this guy named Mike Thomas. He was giving me that guidance to, you know, basically teach me the ropes. But, you know, it was a low paying client. I mean, I was paid 500 bucks and was given $50 for expenses. And, you know, we ended up we ended up winning in in a pretty convincing way. But but the candidate had come down with kidney stones and like two days before the nomination and there was this big like, debate. And so I subbed for the candidate and I'm having to bullshit about water quality issues. What the hell did I know about water quality issues?
David Axelrod
00:13:51
Well, it must have been convincing. So you got the bug?
Chris LaCivita
00:13:56
Yeah. I loved it.
David Axelrod
00:13:56
And then you hooked up with George Allen.
Chris LaCivita
00:13:59
George Allen was running for a special election for Congress in Charlottesville, Virginia. And I hitched with him, and he won the special election. And I ended up going to Washington with him on the Hill for 14 months as a legislative aide.
David Axelrod
00:14:15
And then he left to run for governor.
Chris LaCivita
00:14:16
Well, he was redistricted out of his seat. He ran for governor. And, you know, in Virginia at that point, we still nominated by conventions. So we nominated George by convention, which.
David Axelrod
00:14:28
And were you organizing in that?
Chris LaCivita
00:14:30
Yeah, I was. I had the the south side central area, basically George's home turf. Geographically, the area that I was responsible for was larger than the state of New Jersey. And each county has delegate, certain way to delegate votes. And so each county would have different smaller conventions to send their delegations to the state convention. So very, very detailed organization, organizationally driven exercises that you had to do that required you to have conversations with people. It required you to go to people's homes and sit down and it required you to go to all the meetings and give it a little speech and do all of the stuff. And you would put together lists of people and make sure they turned out at the mass meeting. And then once the mass meeting voted on the delegations, then you had to make sure the delegation showed up at the state convention so that, you know, just very detail oriented. I was taught by some really good people, real convention politics.
David Axelrod
00:15:32
Which became a thing. You ran the convention for the RNC in 2020.
Chris LaCivita
00:15:38
16.
David Axelrod
00:15:38
I'm sorry. In 16.
Chris LaCivita
00:15:39
I did the floor. I was responsible for floor operations and I ran the rules committee.
David Axelrod
00:15:42
Which was no small thing because there was no there was quite a bit of. Cruz was trying to.
Chris LaCivita
00:15:48
I had prepared. Cruz was trying to play game. And the goal was, you know, in every convention, just like I said during this campaign, you know, if you control the rules, you control it, which is the reason why in Trumpworld in 2024, you know, we we went to California and rolled we worked with the state convention at their state convention and locked up rules that were favorable to us on delegate selection. And, of course, you know, it was a very, again, a very detailed, organizationally driven process. That that experience in Virginia through, you know, 16, you know, really paid off at least going into this one.
David Axelrod
00:16:27
You you, I guess 2002, 2010, the Republican National Senate Committee.
Chris LaCivita
00:16:35
NRSC, yeah.
David Axelrod
00:16:35
And then you were you basically emerged as a consultant in this in the midst of this. I got to ask you about the 2004 race. By the way, I was the super PAC guy on the other side of your Swift Boat Veterans for Truth waiting for a flare from the Kerry campaign that we should respond to those ads, which we never got. Which was a mistake. But you put together what is a famous, infamous in some quarters.
Chris LaCivita
00:17:05
Yeah.
David Axelrod
00:17:05
This Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, because part of Kerry's appeal was he had been a Vietnam hero in the Vietnam War, that he had gotten the Silver Star, the Bronze Star, three Purple Hearts. And you went right at that. And I don't want to get into the history of it because you've relived it again and again. But do you think that Kerry was not not a hero in the war?
Chris LaCivita
00:17:31
You know what I was also doing in 2004? A Senate race with Jason Miller against some dude named Barack Obama in Illinois.
David Axelrod
00:17:40
Yeah, I remember that. I remember that. I'm glad you were less successful.
Chris LaCivita
00:17:46
So. So, look, what I remember is this. And and I believe that I believe to this day that John Kerry gamed the system. Gamed the system, which is easy to do in the military, to put himself in a position to be awarded decorations. I mean, when we did the ads, like we had the first two ads already done before the convention, before the convention, and the you know, John Edwards, Senator Edwards had said, if you want to know what John Kerry is made of, just ask the people that served with him in Vietnam. Well, when he said that and I got that clip, I was like, boy, this is going in the front of the ad. And then when we went to, and then when John Kerry stood up and said, I'm John Kerry and I'm reporting for duty.
David Axelrod
00:18:38
That was the first line of his convention speech.
Chris LaCivita
00:18:40
The first line of his convention speech. He led with it so that right then and there, I knew we had something. Matter of fact, because I had showed my mom and dad the ads couple days earlier. My mother called me that night. She said, I hope your phone number's unlisted. It was, you know, foreshadowing, I guess, to some extent what was to come. But but we ended up. It was very important to me that we accurately portray in those ads every single thing that the guys. I mean, there were 40 of these guys that served with them. Every single one of them put their statements down in writing in an affidavit under oath and said, this is the truth as I remember it. And so they bring that to me and I'm like, this is all I need.
David Axelrod
00:19:28
The system could be gamed in all kinds of ways. Sure. And you and I, we both have long history in this in this game. But if people present an affidavit and say, this is my recollection as best as I can recall, the parameters are pretty broad. You also have people who like Rassmann, the guy who he saved, who said, yeah, he saved me. And you had three guys on your side who said, no, that didn't happen that way, who weren't there.
Chris LaCivita
00:19:56
Right. So, I mean, we can relitigate itl
David Axelrod
00:20:01
I don't want to because we got so many other things to talk about.
Chris LaCivita
00:20:03
But I will tell you, I do it again tomorrow. And I know the lot of those guys. And I think the Vietnam veterans in large part were motivated by what we did because of when John Kerry came back.
David Axelrod
00:20:15
Yeah, he came back and he became an antiwar.
Chris LaCivita
00:20:18
Well, it wasn't so much that. I knew a lot of veterans that came back and became antiwar. He came back and disparaged a whole generation of veterans is what he did. And and they suffered with a stigma for decades. And he did that and he paid a price for it. And I was just glad to be a part of of him paying that price.
David Axelrod
00:20:38
So that also would be a motivation to give you the affidavits that you wanted to, because I'm sure there was a lot of enmity among the veterans.
Chris LaCivita
00:20:43
I'm not going to, you know, I sit down with these guys, they put their hand on the oath and they say, that's all I need.
David Axelrod
00:20:50
In any case, it was very, very effective.
Chris LaCivita
00:20:53
Oh yeah. I know.
David Axelrod
00:20:54
You.
Chris LaCivita
00:20:56
Kind of created a verb, too.
David Axelrod
00:20:57
Yes, exactly. Which we heard again in this last campaign. We're going to take a short break and we'll be right back with more of The Axe Files. And now back to the show. In 2015, you worked for Rand Paul when he ran for president.
Chris LaCivita
00:21:25
Briefly.
David Axelrod
00:21:25
Yeah, well, the campaign was brief. Donald Trump became the nominee. We talked about your role in the convention in 2020. You were involved with a superPAC in support of Trump and his reelection.
Chris LaCivita
00:21:38
Preserve America.
David Axelrod
00:21:39
Right. After the election, this, on January 6th. And this has been, again, I don't want to spend a lot of time on this, but there were a series of tweets that you retweeted that went to your concern about, that seemed to go to your concern about what happened on January 6th. So I don't need to.
Chris LaCivita
00:22:03
You know, it's funny, January 6th, the day of January 6th, I was on the Potomac River with my son and two buddies of mine duck hunting. And we were watching all this stuff happen, you know.
David Axelrod
00:22:19
On your phone?
Chris LaCivita
00:22:19
On my phones. And we were just like, shit. What? You know what? You know, and, and and as I said, as I, as I have often said, retweets and or likes do not constitute endorsements. I mean, they just don't. I mean, I like a lot of stuff.
David Axelrod
00:22:34
Well, how are people, how would you think people, but how do you think, Chris, people would when when you retweet the things like they are not protesters, they are thugs. And so how do you how do you think people interpret that?
Chris LaCivita
00:22:50
I think there are I think that there is matter of fact, I know that President Trump called a lot of those people or a handful of those people anyway that were actually involved in the violence and that burned stuff thugs. Right.
David Axelrod
00:23:03
Well, he didn't that day.
Chris LaCivita
00:23:03
That well I mean but but there were a lot of people there. I daresay 98% of the people that were there had never went near the Capitol and weren't engaged in any of those things. So but yet but yet the left will paint every single person who was there as one, you know, in one particular, you know, they're all trying to do X, Y and Z. And the left made a very concerted effort to make that a very central part of this campaign. The American public just wasn't buying it.
David Axelrod
00:23:33
Yeah, you know, that doesn't mean it shouldn't be a concern.
Chris LaCivita
00:23:36
Well, it can be a concern for some people.
David Axelrod
00:23:38
But but but for you, you know, you're a guy, I mean, I have no doubt. We're sitting here. And I've told everybody, we've got a good relationship. And and we're friends. But I also people, you just described taking shrapnel in the face for this country. I know you're you took an oath and you fulfilled it. And you fulfilled it. So we don't have to belabor this, but I got to believe that tha same.
Chris LaCivita
00:24:09
Well, there were some people that did things that day that were bad that I didn't like. But the overwhelming majority of the people that were there did didn't do any of that stuff. And that's life. There are people that do in politics stupid shit every single day.
David Axelrod
00:24:21
But you, don't you think the people who did that stuff should be held accountable for it?
Chris LaCivita
00:24:26
I think some of them were. But I also know that I also know that that that a lot of the stuff that President Trump had said on that particular day, he came out and made it perfectly clear, it just doesn't fit with the timeline that everybody else wants.
David Axelrod
00:24:41
Talk about your decision to get involved in the campaign and you came on board in.
Chris LaCivita
00:24:49
Well, in 2020 I was obviously I was very involved in Preserve America and and that was 120 million close to $120 million super PAC that basically ran ads against Biden in all the battleground states. And that was at a critical time because the because the Trump campaign in July of that year literally went broke. Right. They had no money to run ads. And so we were the only people on TV in any significant manner. And then in 22, Tony Fabrizio, who's a dear friend of mine I've worked with for.
David Axelrod
00:25:22
Who was a fellow here at the IOP/
Chris LaCivita
00:25:24
Oh really? Yeah, and he and I worked together, my God, for 30 years and all different capacities came to me and said, Hey, would you be interested in doing some superPAC work for, you know, President Trump's superPAC? When I was like, Sure. And he said, Well, let me introduce you to Susie Wiles. So I'd never met Susie. And I knew who she was. I was actually in 2016 when we at the RNC because I was also the battleground states director in 16 as a consultant when we fired the old state director in.
David Axelrod
00:25:59
Florida.
Chris LaCivita
00:26:01
Who will rename nameless, you know, Susie was brought on. And so, you know, Susie sort of had like this this aura about her of of being the the you know the uber consultant from Florida. And so but so you know, it was great to meet Susie and she and I hit it off immediately and so she said hey let's talk about, you know, what we can do in terms of TV ads and things like that. So I and I went and had met, met the boss, sat down, had dinner with the boss. That was a shit show.
David Axelrod
00:26:31
Why was it a shit show?
Chris LaCivita
00:26:33
'Just imagine you're at the you're at the Mar-a-Lago.
David Axelrod
00:26:37
In the dining room?
Chris LaCivita
00:26:38
No, no, no. You're in the back patio and there's and he's sitting in the center table with rope and stanchion around them and you're center show. Yeah. And so, and there's, you know, hundreds of people in there on the ground like, who's the new guy?
David Axelrod
00:26:51
Who the hell is he?
Chris LaCivita
00:26:52
Yeah, yeah. Who's this guy. Yeah. Right. And so but then, you know, the boss is playing the music and he just it was, it was comical was it was quite enjoyable. But, you know. Chris, do you like lobster? I love lobster. Bring LaCivita the biggest lobster. They bring the lobster. And they gave me this discussion about the reason why he serves the lobster and whole plate. The whole lobster is because if you just serve the meat, no one's going to want to pay 150 bucks for that, he says, but if you bring out the whole lobster on a giant plate, on a doily, wow, they get their money's worth. I mean, that kind of attention to detail on these kinds of things.
David Axelrod
00:27:27
Remember that when you open LaCivita's.
Chris LaCivita
00:27:29
Yeah, right. Yeah, but. Yeah. So I had a couple of meetings with them and, you know, we were, we hit it off and and of course I was working with Susie and the stuff. So and I ended up doing the MAGA Inc ads. And during that period of time, she and Tony, I think, were conspiring to ensure that I moved over to the campaign. I figured, well, this would probably work itself into a superPAC role. And it may have started out that way. I never really asked, but. But Susie and I just got along so well that it just was a natural for me to go to the campaign.
David Axelrod
00:28:00
But when you guys took over the campaign but at the beginning of this association, his stock was not trading that high.
Chris LaCivita
00:28:07
No.
David Axelrod
00:28:07
Tell me what you confronted right after the midterms in 2022.
Chris LaCivita
00:28:13
The party was that the party was at a low point. We knew going in.
David Axelrod
00:28:17
And partly was that a low point because a lot of the guys he endorsed got smoked in the midterms. It was viewed as a repudiation of Trump.
Chris LaCivita
00:28:25
Correct. But I will tell you that that an interesting story, the the day that the Dobbs decision came down earlier that summer leading up to the 22 election. But I was sitting in his office with him in Bedminster. And my phone went off, the alert went off, and I went, boy. And he's like, What? And I read it to him and he just looked at me. Well, we're going to have a problem. He instinctively knew immediately the political issue that that was going to pose. But going into the election the last couple of weeks, all the public polling, all the private data was suggesting, you know, a blowout for Republicans. So when it didn't materialize.
David Axelrod
00:29:10
Meaning in their favor, because that's what would usually happen in a midterm election.
Chris LaCivita
00:29:15
It was yeah, it was viewed as an immediate repudiation of Trump. And then it was because of the Dobbs decision. Part was because of, the party is ready to move on. You had the rising stock of Ron DeSantis, you know, and then, you know, and Nikki Haley, really. And so, yeah, it was it was it was a rough period of time. And then three weeks later, I had this you know, we had to deal with this idiotic people that showed up at the at the the week after Thanksgiving. The Fuentes stuff and all that stuff that no one knew who the hell they were until they showed up at the front gate.
David Axelrod
00:29:56
'Yeah. Neo-Nazis.
Chris LaCivita
00:29:57
Yeah. Yeah.
David Axelrod
00:29:58
All of that. Why did he meet with them?
Chris LaCivita
00:30:03
I wasn't there. And all. All I remember is is that I don't think they even knew who. I know he didn't know who one of the guys was. I think the meeting was with. God. What is his name? Ye or whatever? I don't know who that is.
David Axelrod
00:30:20
You're talking about Kanye West.
Chris LaCivita
00:30:21
Kanye. That's it. That's it. Yeah. Yeah. And so. And I'm like, who who, how did they, you know, Susie and I are kind of like scratching our head, but but all of that at the same around the same time. Yeah, it was a, it was a. That was a rough part. It was a low part. And. And. But.
David Axelrod
00:30:41
How much of your job was keeping people like that? I mean, because it seems to me Trump is always willing to meet people who are going to be nice to him and say nice things about him. How much of your job was sort of like, maybe we shouldn't be meeting with people like that?
Chris LaCivita
00:30:54
Honestly, after that, we wouldn't have much of a problem at all. But. At all. Because, I mean, you know.
David Axelrod
00:31:04
He's not known as the most the easiest guy to manage.
Chris LaCivita
00:31:08
Well, you know, as I told you very early on, you know, back during the primaries and I've told this to people all the time, you know, my job wasn't to control him. I think, you know, I worry about what I can control.
David Axelrod
00:31:20
You did tell me that.
Chris LaCivita
00:31:21
Yeah. And he's not one of those things that that entered into that. Right. I can control the campaign. And I went in with eyes open, and I've never gone into a campaign saying that I'm going to control a candidate. I just haven't.
David Axelrod
00:31:34
But you've probably had more of an opportunity to influence what the candidate did on a moment to moment basis than in this campaign.
Chris LaCivita
00:31:41
Well, no. I mean, you know, the boss, we would talk to him about certain things. We would give our honest opinion. I mean, we were never it's not like he didn't listen to people.
David Axelrod
00:31:50
There had to be times when you said you gave him his opinion. He did what he wanted to do. And you just looked at each other and said, oh shit.
Chris LaCivita
00:31:57
No, what we would do is we if if and of course, of course it happened, you know, and and we just had to, we, we'd go, okay, well now we know what we have to do. I think that's what separated us from previous campaigns or previous iterations of the campaign. Instead of pivoting and then going on background to people saying, wasn't our decision, we never would have done this. We just found a way to survive it and move forward.
David Axelrod
00:32:24
And and I mean to say that everybody speaks highly of Susie Wiles. Yeah. Everybody I know. Reporters and others. Straight shooter. Very organized. Very disciplined. Right. Can you manage the White House in the way that you, can you just give him your best advice and then manage the fallout when he doesn't take it?
Chris LaCivita
00:32:43
Well, he hasn't. So Susie took you know, she was at the center of of all of that, really on a day to day basis, especially dealing with the boss. And and she she's she just she's just very effective at communicating to all parties and to the boss. You know, the good, the bad and the ugly. And she doesn't sugarcoat anything. She just doesn't. And look.
David Axelrod
00:33:11
So he chooses the ugly, then she just moves on.
Chris LaCivita
00:33:13
Yeah. And but he respects her immensely and.
David Axelrod
00:33:19
Just the fact that she's survived this long makes her a world record holder.
Chris LaCivita
00:33:23
Like four years. Right. And so. In different capacities. But but and, you know, very, very bright, very forward looking. And the most important thing is that he, the president trusts her implicitly. And so having that, as you know, you've been in those in that kind of environment as well, having that trust between the candidate and and and, you know, the your top political people is very, very important. And he had that with me as well. And that was the one currency that I guarded very jealously, which was, you know, that trust.
David Axelrod
00:33:59
Do you think. I want to get back to the campaign, but do you think that she has if she says, boy, appointing that person would be insane? Maybe she wouldn't say it that way. But do you think that she has the ability to persuade him not to appoint people?
Chris LaCivita
00:34:12
You know, I think her job is. I mean, I could speculate all day long and I try to avoid that because I'm not a prognosticator and I have no desire to be.
David Axelrod
00:34:22
You're not inside either, which apparently you have no desire to be.
Chris LaCivita
00:34:26
Correct. That's not my thing. And I can be very helpful to to what the president wants accomplished on the outside as opposed to being on the inside. But, I mean, Susie's always been known to speak the truth and she's always been known to speak her opinion. And that's part of the reason why he's got her there. So.
David Axelrod
00:34:42
And he'll either take it or he won't.
Chris LaCivita
00:34:43
Well, that's that's generally the way it works with anyone.
David Axelrod
00:34:46
I'm interested because one of the discussions we had back in Iowa in January was your approach to the field and to reaching voters and your emphasis there was not to bring out the people who generally participate in these caucuses, but identify Trump voters who were irregular voters, which seemed to be the same strategy was in the general election. Talk a little bit about that and how did you reach these voters?
Chris LaCivita
00:35:13
I mean, we had a great political operation. Basically, what we had done in Iowa was a test case. And look, as things had developed and we started, you know, the campaign started going and we developed a really good rhythm. And tactically, we were just a lot more aggressive and a lot better campaign than what DeSantis had put together. And so, you know, and you can feel that momentum. And when you feel that momentum, it gives you a degree of swagger. And we were really convincing. We were convinced internally that we knew the primaries we were going to roll through.
David Axelrod
00:35:46
How much did the indictments help?
Chris LaCivita
00:35:48
Well, I mean, when that first one popped, I mean, our numbers went through the roof. I mean. They helped a lot. They helped a lot.
David Axelrod
00:35:54
Would he have been nominated without them?
Chris LaCivita
00:35:55
Yeah. And let me tell you why. Because about two weeks before the first indictment, we want to ease Palestine, Ohio. And it was after that visit that we saw a first substantial separation in our primary numbers was after that visit.
David Axelrod
00:36:16
After the train.
Chris LaCivita
00:36:17
The train derailment and, you know, the the the basically this particular area of of of Ohio wasn't getting any emergency response. And it's like the you know, basically the locals are saying the government doesn't care about us. And so the president flew in. I was with him on that trip. And it was an amazing it was an amazing thing. But literally we saw our numbers just pop after that because we sort of reminded people what it was about Trump that they liked. And and then, of course, two weeks later, the indictment happened and then we popped off like rocket fuel.
David Axelrod
00:36:49
So finding these voters, everybody's really interesting about this in the general election.
Chris LaCivita
00:36:55
Yeah. Because they told us we were crazy. We didn't have an operation that was worthy of it. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I have all the newspaper articles I'm putting together and handing them out to my staff.
David Axelrod
00:37:03
Well, you know, two things could be true at once. You could be crazy and you still could have had a good operation, correct?
Chris LaCivita
00:37:08
Yeah, 100%. But but but here's what we did on just about that on this real quick. So, you know, we had all these people that signed up. They go to Trump rallies and there's tens of thousands of people who show up. And, you know, and so they would show up and they would just fill out paperwork. And I said, well, what are you doing with it? Right? This is this is like 16 campaign. They had like 10,000 caucus cards and they were never entered into a database. So what we started doing is I was able basically was able to find a lot of that information, make sure it was in the boss's database. So we developed these lists of people that attended all of these events and just dumped them into the voter file and matched it up and started targeting these people by those were our those were our base people, right? If they show up to a rally, then then they should easily find five people to vote to come out and vote in a caucus. So we started building an operation. It was basically build on that. And then one of the things that we found with all the people that we put into our system, there were 8000 of them that weren't even registered to vote. So I said, Look, your goal, I told the team, set your goal to get 2500 of those 8000 registered. They ended up getting like 4000 registered. So we had all these new voters. And so we had such a a a a a solid win in Iowa, despite the fact that the turnout was nearly 40% lower than what everybody projected. And then and, of course, you know, we went into New Hampshire, which is more of a traditional, you know, back and forth. But that was fun because it was we were watching Nikki make a big, big mistake, basically. You know, you had, you know, had Ron, his debt, put all the eggs in the basket. He had to finish second, had to in Iowa. Otherwise he was dead in the water. Nikki got greedy because her numbers were showing her competitive.
David Axelrod
00:39:02
Right.
Chris LaCivita
00:39:03
And so she started spending all of money.
David Axelrod
00:39:05
Because she needed him in the New Hampshire primary.
Chris LaCivita
00:39:07
'And she was spending all her money, all her money, all her money in Iowa. And I'm looking at what they're doing in New Hampshire. And I'm like, they're not doing anything in New Hampshire. And New Hampshire is in three weeks. I was like. So we dropped a bunch of attack ads on her in New Hampshire. They never saw it coming. We dropped these attack ads on them in New Hampshire that were on the issue of immigration. She's soft on immigration. Right. And so to to lull their super-PAC into a battle with us in New Hampshire while we're still cleaning their clocks in Iowa. And I figured they would pull out of Iowa, which then I would get some play out of. Right. And say, they've collapsed in Iowa. But to my surprise, they stayed in because they wanted to win Iowa, kill off him, use that as a slingshot to come in and beat us in New Hampshire. But we recognized that plan started beating them up in New Hampshire.
David Axelrod
00:40:03
'We're going to take a short break and we'll be right back with more of The Axe Files. And now back to the show. We talked at the beginning about both. We both come from immigrant families. And, you know, I'm very sensitive to the fact that when my father came over in the early 20s and when your grandparents came over in the early 20s, there were people in positions of power who are saying the same thing about Italians and Jews, that that addressing that immigration in the same way that Trump has addressed immigration, that it you know, it's going to dilute our, you know, dilute our country. It's you know, you know all the words that he's been using. I'm of I am you and I are probably in strong agreement that immigration should be legal. Immigration. We should have an enforceable border and so on. But you've got to be. I mean, you got to be the campaign co-manager for a president of the United States. I got to be senior adviser for president of the United States. My father could never have imagined that I would be that. It really is only in America. And I'd like to think we contributed to the country. And there are a lot of immigrants who are contributing to this county.
Chris LaCivita
00:41:33
100%. And I don't think I don't think President Trump would disagree with that. As a matter of fact, he's always and he's been talking a lot about it in this particular campaign as well, which is I'm all for immigration as long as it's legal.
David Axelrod
00:41:45
Well, except he does identify different groups of people.
Chris LaCivita
00:41:48
Well, my grandparents and your grandparents, they my grandparents, the Italians and the Irish, they came through Ellis Island. They came over here legally. They did not cross the border. They did not start taking government benefits or expecting X, Y and Z. They just didn't. There's a completely different perspective. And by the way, that's part of the reason why Trump did so much better with Hispanic voters, broke all the records with Hispanic voters, is because all the Hispanic voters that vote are the ones the vast majority of them, you know, if they're legal and they they've done it the right way and they don't like people who break rules.
David Axelrod
00:42:22
No, I'm well, they voted for Trump. So that's not entirely true. But but I, I worry about the demonization of people just because I know that my relatives were demonized. Your relatives.
Chris LaCivita
00:42:37
I do not see an equivalency with my grandparents or my family history and what's going on at the border right now. None whatsoever. So I sleep soundly at night.
David Axelrod
00:42:46
Okay. But just getting back to the campaign, what in the general election you guys also had the strategy, was executed differently but was somewhat the same, which is there are Trump voters out there who are Trump voters and they don't participate in anything else. And in fact, you saw it in a bunch of states where he outpolled the Senate candidates of the Republican Party. Yeah, Arizona, Pennsylvania. So. And you pulled them out. How much did the this this petition deal of Elon Musk, how much did that help in a state like Pennsylvania? I mean.
Chris LaCivita
00:43:23
I think it I mean, look, everything that was going on out there was an added benefit, Right? It's not like it hurt us at all. But, you know, our numbers in Pennsylvania were great, our numbers. But but but, you know, in truth, the the new voter registrations in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania were much higher for Republicans than they were Democrats, first time ever. That had nothing to do with anybody.
David Axelrod
00:43:50
Was up around the country.
Chris LaCivita
00:43:51
Was up around the country, but specifically in Pennsylvania was was way up. And that and of course, the campaign put and the RNC put a big emphasis on early voting and which had never been done before. And I was.
David Axelrod
00:44:05
Partly because the president.
Chris LaCivita
00:44:06
You know, he didn't believe in it. And this was in 2020. And, you know, they changed all the rules.
David Axelrod
00:44:11
You must have had that talk with him.
Chris LaCivita
00:44:12
Oh my God. Especially Susie and Lara. Lara Trump was I think I give her a lot of credit, as I do Susie, for that discipline to stay on top of that. Every time the boss would go out and say, we want to vote single day voting, and we're like, just throw in there a little bit about, you know, the early vote. And he did. And when we started getting the results, you know, when when the voting started, it was it was quite amazing to see the. I knew that if tactically we put our efforts behind it, that we could be better than anybody else.
David Axelrod
00:44:42
I got to quickly ask you about a bunch of stuff that deserves more time. One is the debate with Biden. You probably were as surprised as everyone else that.
Chris LaCivita
00:44:54
That he would do it.
David Axelrod
00:44:54
And that he performed it the way he, he did perform. Did you think that night, holy shit. He may not. He may not make it. He may not be able to stay in this race?
Chris LaCivita
00:45:06
Yes. As a matter of fact, you know, when the boss said, you know, when President Trump said anytime, anywhere, any place, you know, okay, that's what's going to happen, you know? And then, of course.
David Axelrod
00:45:15
That wasn't your advice. That was something he did.
Chris LaCivita
00:45:17
Yeah, that was. Yeah, but but but it's not that. It wasn't anything that we disagreed with. And the reason being because none of us felt that he would debate. We didn't think there was a chance in hell that Biden would agree to a debate. So when they agreed to a debate and said there'd be two and one would be in June, we're like, it's a little early, but why the hell not? Yep, sure. Let's do it. And so. So, you know, the fact that we got a debate for us was a win. But literally the first five minutes into the debate, we're all thinking, okay, he's not going to make it. He's this this is going to change.
David Axelrod
00:45:52
And by the time you got to the convention and the president had been shot, which, which obviously was stunning and upsetting. And although who else in the world would find the hero shot photo in the midst of being carted away from this assassination attempt. But you got to the convention and there was the sense, and I was there, we're on the road to a huge victory here because Biden is so weakened. And I asked Tony Fabrizio at the convention, what if he drops out? And Tony said he acknowledged that that would make things more complicated. And he said, well, but we're just going to tie Biden around her neck. That's what you were. You obviously oversaw the media.
Chris LaCivita
00:46:42
So in May, we did a report on and we did an internal analysis of what would what would be required for them to dump Biden. We did it in May. So we started thinking about this and before even the first debate. So when that first debate happened, it's like, pull it out, dust it off. Let's recirculate this.
David Axelrod
00:47:00
Was it your assumption she would be the nominee?
Chris LaCivita
00:47:02
'Yes. 100%. Because I couldn't imagine that they would take the first African-American woman vice president and depose her for anybody else, which just wasn't going to happen. And and I mean, of course, it was hard for us to believe that they would depose the incumbent president of the United States. But they did so. So when when when going into the convention, there was more and more talk, the RNC convention, there was more and more talk about switching. So we ensured that all of the media that was packaged in what was a very well orchestrated, message driven event at the convention.
David Axelrod
00:47:40
Economy, immigration.
Chris LaCivita
00:47:41
'Right. And then we had all the, you know, the real people stories and all that kind of stuff that it included Harris in everything. In every single instance. It included her visually, by name, the whole nine yards. Biden-Harris. Biden-Harris. Biden-Harris. And so when the drop happened, you know, we were all it's not like we were standing around, you know.
David Axelrod
00:48:04
Although he seemed a little bit out of sorts for awhile.
Chris LaCivita
00:48:07
Everybody was out of sorts. I mean, of course, you know, we look back at it now, I say think about it boss, you just beat two Democrat nominees for president in one election. I mean, you know, he loves to be the first at and the best that that. You know that's a, you're looking back. But at the time, yeah, you were a little discombobulated because you're spending money you're spending resources on doing this.
David Axelrod
00:48:27
He said he wanted a refund, he said. But but so talk to me about conceptualizing the ads against her.
Chris LaCivita
00:48:36
Well.
David Axelrod
00:48:37
Well, first, you used a lot of her own language.
Chris LaCivita
00:48:40
90% of the ads she starred in. Why why why put words in someone's mouth in a political ad when.
David Axelrod
00:48:49
It's been known to happen, but yes.
Chris LaCivita
00:48:51
Yeah, but why? But why? Why? When you have her delivering the message best herself.
David Axelrod
00:48:58
Bidenomics is working.
Chris LaCivita
00:49:00
Bidenomics is working.
David Axelrod
00:49:01
And The View.
Chris LaCivita
00:49:02
The View stuff. And then there's nothing I would change to you know, prisoners and illegal aliens or immigrants should have, you know, taxpayer funded gender transition surgery.
David Axelrod
00:49:15
I want to ask you about that. Hold that one. But yeah, but before we get to that, based on the 2020 campaign, I thought Kamala Harris outperformed my expectations, especially in the first two months of the debate. She did pretty well in the debate.
Chris LaCivita
00:49:30
I mean, people judge debates through the lens of and especially in Washington and on TV through this construct of what a debate should be. And the boss was like, you know, he made his points and everybody. He's if people say he takes that he was taking the bait. No, he views it, I was defending myself. I'm not going to let that charge go unanswered.
David Axelrod
00:49:54
He didn't look particularly strong that night. It looked like he was responding to her the whole night. If you were, I'm a boxing fan, you're probably a boxing guy. You know, if someone is is on defense the whole night and taking the punches and responding to what the other person is doing, that's not a win.
Chris LaCivita
00:50:11
'Yeah, Well, but at the end of the day, it was from our standpoint, it was are we pushing the points that we want to push? What are we getting from her that we can then use against her? And then, of course, him going down to the spin room post-debate, which was just a masterclass in occupying and sucking all the space, you know, to a point that we generated, of course, we know most of it was negative because of the way the press is, but over $2.1 billion in our media during the course of this campaign was crazy.
David Axelrod
00:50:45
Do you. The dogs and cats thing that happened in that debate? Yeah. I mean.
Chris LaCivita
00:50:50
The greatest meme ever done. The songs, the memes, the.
David Axelrod
00:50:53
Yeah. But it also started a conversation about immigration which had quieted down because the border had quieted. And was that his intent?
Chris LaCivita
00:51:01
I mean.
David Axelrod
00:51:03
I don't know if he operates on that level or whether it's all intuitive.
Chris LaCivita
00:51:06
I think a lot of it is intuitive. I think he knows that to to to generate a conversation about a particular subject, you probably have to push the boundaries sometimes.
David Axelrod
00:51:18
Yeah, well, he does it all the time. Yeah. Last last thing about the media campaign, you mentioned the trans spots. Did you write the?
Chris LaCivita
00:51:27
Some of them. I remember we were having this conversation because Tony was, you know, and as was I, we were religious in our discipline in terms of making sure that the only conversation we were talking about was economy, economics, economics. That was the number one issue we needed, you know, blah, blah, blah. And then that, you know, the video showed up and then, you know, the K file, I think had done some clip on it or something. And so that gave us the the of.
David Axelrod
00:51:52
Of Kamala Harris had a thing in the in the in the in the teens talking about.
Chris LaCivita
00:51:57
Gender transitions.
David Axelrod
00:51:58
For.
Chris LaCivita
00:51:59
Prisoners.
David Axelrod
00:51:59
Prisoners.
Chris LaCivita
00:52:00
And and then of course we you know the K file guys at CNN found, you know a.
David Axelrod
00:52:05
Charlamagne tha God.
Chris LaCivita
00:52:07
Well or Charlamagne as I call him. But when we aired the first ad, he then went on the air, Charlamagne did, and said I'm not for that blah blah. And we took that clip and turned it into a second ad.
David Axelrod
00:52:19
He claims it was out of context that he was saying, I understand how people are going to react to that.
Chris LaCivita
00:52:23
Well, I mean, I don't know. I know I ran the whole clip. So we ran the whole clip. We targeted Black men, Hispanic families, white families, suburban women. We ran that ad, because it also got to the point about boys and girls locker rooms, which suburban moms don't like. So.
David Axelrod
00:52:41
You know, listen, I would I will say that will go down as one of the most ruthlessly effective negative ads in the history of presidential politics. So I have no doubt about that. But I want to tell you an experience I had the other day. I went to see a friend and in the midst of it, he got very quiet and he said, Can I talk to you about something? And I said, Sure. And he said, I never told you this, but I have a trans child. He's 20 years old or they is 20 years old. He is in the midst of this process. And he's you know, he said, I'm not, you know, new. I mean, I've been around. They want to campaign on this issue. But what I hope they leave my kid alone now because he feels like he's targeted. And I'm asking you this because you and I both have kids, right? You can understand, can't you? I mean, I'm crediting you with an ad that was devastating. But you can understand, can't you, how the perspective of this parent who's just worried about their kid?
Chris LaCivita
00:53:52
Right. So and parents who've lost children from migrant crime and all of these people.
David Axelrod
00:53:59
I have empathy for all of them.
Chris LaCivita
00:54:01
All right. And and I'm not look, my I don't make judgments about people first and foremost about anybody. That. I may I may disagree with them, but that's not my job. I don't I don't make judgments. My faith doesn't allow me to do that anyway. But in terms of, you know, in terms of in a campaign, look, that is an issue that is central, or at least it was to the Democrats.
David Axelrod
00:54:32
I didn't see her running on it.
Chris LaCivita
00:54:34
Well, of course not, because she knew how bad it was. I gave her the opportunity to talk about it.
David Axelrod
00:54:37
It really applies to very, I mean, this is a very obscure issue. It may have a big cultural message. I mean, I get the whole.
Chris LaCivita
00:54:44
Dave, I mean, they're they're they're in school systems across the country. They're literally, teachers are run running around telling kids this is Trans day, this is that. That's being force fed to people across across the country. And the vast majority of people are not for it. And so, I mean, look, I certainly empathize with people who have, you know, a situation like that, just don't freakin tell the rest of the world that it's got to be accepted as the way it has to be, because that's just not the way this country is based.
David Axelrod
00:55:15
But you you tell that to to to people on the other side of issues who want to dictate personal decisions that affect one's own life. Just, you make your own decisions. Don't don't tell me how to make my decisions. That's the argument that the the the, you know, reproductive rights people make.
Chris LaCivita
00:55:35
Well, and that's there's a fundamental difference there because the people on the right, myself included, believe that life begins at conception. And I actually think that the true conservative position, if you're a real conservative, the real conservative position, even though I believe life begins at conception, but that's my personal opinion, but is is that it belongs in the States. You know, it's one of the things that the President Trump, I thought did a masterful job of of disarming when clearly it was not the number one issue for the left because that was the only thing that they could talk about. And one point that I would want to raise as it relates to campaigns and it relates to, you know, the messaging. In the last two weeks of our campaign, we ran a total of six different creatives. The Harris campaign ran over 100.
David Axelrod
00:56:25
So, yeah, I know I've had this discussion with Tony about that and I saw that. Let me ask you this last question because we got to run. Yup. Given the right track number in the country, 28% or something, given the president's.
Chris LaCivita
00:56:39
I looked at the wrong track.
David Axelrod
00:56:41
Given the president's approval rating, which hovered around 40. Given the public attitudes toward the economy, which were two thirds negative. And given the fact that Kamala Harris was the vice president. Could she have won the race?
Chris LaCivita
00:56:56
You know.
David Axelrod
00:56:57
Those are you know, those are historic headwinds. No incumbent party has ever overcome that. Now, Trump had some historic headwinds, too.
Chris LaCivita
00:57:05
He did. But I got to tell you, and I don't say this very often, but but I just knew I knew after he survived that shooting, I was like, there's no way that that you go through something, you get spared that to lose. You just I mean I'm know that sounds. But but but at the same time I'm I'm sure there that that that had they developed some sort of message, but they didn't have a message. They didn't. I mean I didn't spend a whole lot of time thinking about that. You know, it was just about taking advantage of opportunities as they present themselves, which she did weekly. I mean, Biden did daily. She did weekly. I don't know. I mean, I think I think what I think that the the establishment in the government bet the justice system, the quote unquote justice system. I think all of the rote, everything that was that we've had to endure. We endured assassination attempts. We endured having to change and alter an entire campaign apparatus in operation because the damn Iranians were trying to shoot us down. And thee and the.
David Axelrod
00:58:19
Thank God the FBI could.
Chris LaCivita
00:58:20
The people in Washington could give two damns about.
David Axelrod
00:58:21
Thank God the FBI and the intelligence community thwarted that.
Chris LaCivita
00:58:26
Well. I mean, every time we asked them for something, it was sort of like, sure, sure. Kick the can down the road. I mean, it was a huge pain in the ass. So glad we're going to be able to change so much there. But then, you know, the 14th Amendment cases where they're trying to kick them off the ballot state by state. I mean, they did not want to run against Donald Trump and they did absolutely everything in their power, save taking a shot at him. They had other wackos. And so, you know, I they certainly did everything in their power to try and defeat him. And none of it worked.
David Axelrod
00:58:58
Well, Chris LaCivita, you. Everybody in this business always thinks about what it's like to win the big race. You won the big race and you're wisely not going into this government.
Chris LaCivita
00:59:12
I wouldn't say this government. I just don't do government.
David Axelrod
00:59:14
I know.
Chris LaCivita
00:59:16
Yeah.
David Axelrod
00:59:17
My guess is your business is going to do well after this.
Chris LaCivita
00:59:19
I have, I do what I like to do. Right, which is campaigns and that kind of stuff.
David Axelrod
00:59:24
Good to see you. Thank you for being here.
Chris LaCivita
00:59:27
My pleasure.
Outro
00:59:31
Thank you for listening to The Axe Files, brought to you by the Institute of Politics at the University of Chicago and CNN Audio. The executive producer of the show is Miriam Finder Annenberg. The show is also produced by Saralena Barry, Jeff Fox and Hannah Grace McDonald. And special thanks to our partners at CNN, including Steve Lickteig and Haley Thomas. For more programing from IOP, visit politics dot u chicago dot edu.
