Senate hearing on the Norfolk Southern train derailment in Ohio

Norfolk Southern Chief Executive Alan Shaw testified on the East Palestine, Ohio train derailment before a U.S. Senate Environment and Public Works Committee hearing today on Capitol Hill.

Lawmakers on both sides of the aisle tried to get some answers about the train derailment in East Palestine, Ohio, during a Senate committee hearing Thursday.

A Norfolk Southern train crashed on February 3, releasing toxic chemicals into the air, water and soil of the town. The Senate Environment and Public Works committee heard from witnesses, including Norfolk Southern CEO Alan Shaw.

Here are some key takeaways from the hearing:

Norfolk Southern CEO apologizes: Shaw began his testimony with an apology to the individuals and communities hurt by the derailment and said that Norfolk Southern will work to help East Palestine recover. He outlined a number of financial commitments as part of that effort and said the company “will be in the community for as long as it takes.”

Concerns from the community: The hearing featured several senators as witnesses: Ohio Sens. Sherrod Brown, a Democrat, and J.D. Vance, a Republican, and Pennsylvania Sen. Bob Casey, a Democrat.

They spoke about what they are hearing from constituents in communities affected by fallout from the incident and said people are worried about everything from drinking water and air quality as well as if their crops or livestock are contaminated.

Rail safety legislation: A bipartisan group of senators has proposed a new bill aimed at shoring up rail safety. The Railway Safety Act of 2023 has been introduced by Vance and other Republican Sens. Marco Rubio of Florida and Josh Hawley of Missouri, as well as Brown, Casey and fellow Democratic Sen. John Fetterman of Pennsylvania. In his testimony, Casey said he hopes to hear Norfolk Southern say they support the bill.

“It’s bipartisan — that never happens around here on big bills, or rarely I should say,” Casey said. “If a major rail company said, ‘we support these reforms and will help you pass this bill,’ That’s what I think the people of both states deserve,” he later added.

Later in the hearing, Shaw was asked if he would commit to supporting the bipartisan bill. Shaw wouldn’t endorse all of the provisions of the bill, but he said, “we are committed to the legislative intent to make rail safer.”

Sanders presses Norfolk Southern CEO on health care costs for residents following train wreck: Vermont independent Sen. Bernie Sanders pressed Shaw on health care needs in East Palestine, asking if his vow to help the community following the train derailment will include paying for health care costs for residents. 

Shaw did not make a definitive commitment, but said that “everything is on the table.”

CNN’s Jason Carroll spoke to residents and business owners in East Palestine, Ohio, about how they are coping in the aftermath of February’s toxic train derailment.

Watch his reporting from the ground:

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Negley, Ohio, resident Kathy Reese during her interview after watching the Senate hearing.

Negley, Ohio, resident Kathy Reese said Thursday that she finds Norfolk Southern CEO Alan Shaw’s testimony on Capitol Hill to be vague, open-ended, and evasive. 

“I think he’s full of it,” Reese said. “It’s great that he wants to put millions into everything, but that’s not going to change how peoples’ health is. If the health is already ruined by this air and stuff, unfortunately that’s not going to help.”

Shaw was among a panel of officials testifying in Washington, DC, Thursday before the Senate Committee on Environment and Public Works about the train derailment in East Palestine, Ohio. The company’s CEO began his remarks by apologizing to the communities hurt by the derailment.

“I am determined to make this right. Norfolk Southern will clean the site safely, thoroughly and with urgency. You have my personal commitment. Norfolk Southern will get the job done and help East Palestine thrive,” Shaw said.

Reese, who watched the ongoing testimony alongside CNN’s Jason Carroll, previously participated in CNN’s Town Hall on the East Palestine train derailment last month. Her home is located nine minutes from the derailment site and a creek that runs along the back of her property was contaminated.

Reese, who is not currently engaged in any litigation against Norfolk Southern, said she didn’t think Shaw answered any questions directly. She said she generally feels that Norfolk Southern “keep[s] skating around questions” without offering any specifics.

Reese also spoke on her frustration around water testing – she said she has not yet received the EPA testing results of her well water. When she asked testing officials to also test the creek and the ground around her home, she said they declined to do so, stating that they were only supposed to test the well water.

The EPA has installed “sentinel wells” near the city’s municipal well field to monitor contaminants in well water as part of the agency’s long-term early detection system to protect the community “for years to come,” Anne Vogel, head of the Ohio EPA, said last month.

Debra Shore, regional administrator for US EPA Region 5, also testified at the Senate committee hearing on Thursday. She and other EPA officials have maintained that both the air and municipal water in and around East Palestine is safe. Residents using private well water have been urged to get their water tested before using.

“EPA monitors have not detected any volatile organic compounds above levels of health concerns. While EPA is encouraged by the data, we also recognize that the people of East Palestine still question the health and safety of their community and their loved ones,” Shore said.

Despite the pledges of support and ongoing air and water testing, the train derailment continues to place a stigma on the community, with people from surrounding area hesitating to travel to East Palestine and nearby towns, Reese said.

“Even our basketball program – there was a lot of people that didn’t want to come here,” Reese said. “Our kids are suffering for it.”  

Norfolk Southern and Alabama authorities are at the scene of a train derailment in Calhoun County, Alabama, according to a Calhoun County Emergency Management Agency (EMA) news release issued Thursday. 

“Initial reports indicate approximately 30 cars derailed,” just before 8 a.m. ET in the Quad Cities area of White Plains — about 90 miles from Birmingham, near the Georgia border, the news release said.

“There are no injuries and no reports of leaks of hazmat,” and there are no road blockages, the news release said.

Norfolk Southern has responded and their “cleanup crew is on site and there is no estimation on how long it will take,” the news release stated, adding that EMA officials are working with Norfolk Southern on those efforts.

Local officials have scheduled an afternoon press briefing on the derailment. CNN has reached out to Norfolk Southern for comment.  

This happened just hours before CEO Alan Shaw testified in a Senate hearing about the February train derailment in East Palestine, Ohio. In his remarks and exchanges with lawmakers, he consistently touted the lower number of Norfolk Southern train derailments last year, and that he is committed to making the company’s safety culture the best in the industry.  

Ohio EPA and other clean-up crews work in Sulphur Run creek on February 23 in East Palestine, Ohio

Several experts testifying before a Senate committee Thursday on the toxic train derailment in Ohio pointed to cross-agency collaboration as something that worked well during the response to the disaster.

Debra Shore, regional administrator for the Environmental Protection Agency, commended the way local, state and federal entities worked together, adding that although it was remarkable, “it should be standard.”

“It has not been about politics, but about people,” she said during the hearing on the crash in East Palestine, Ohio. She pointed to President Joe Biden calling and talking with Republican Ohio Gov. Mike DeWine to pledge federal support for the state as just one example.

Norfolk Southern CEO Alan Shaw said getting the site cleaned up is his priority. He said the company couldn’t accomplish that without help from the EPA and other environmental groups.

Anne Vogel, director of the Ohio Environmental Protection Agency, who spent a lot of time on the ground in East Palestine, touted the commitment of local officials to connecting the community to people who could provide scientific answers and expertise.

Richard Harrison, the executive director and chief engineer of the Ohio River Valley Water Sanitation Commission, said “this was not a unique response.” He pointed to the hundreds of reports of potential spills that come into his office, and he felt the crash demonstrated how his team and system work.

Senator Shelley Moore Capito, a Republican from West Virginia and ranking member of the Senate Environment and Public Works Committee, speaks during a hearing in Washington, DC, on Thursday, March 9.

At Thursday’s Senate hearing on the toxic train disaster in East Palestine, Ohio, Sen. Shelley Capito pointed to various instances of communication gaps that led to lack of trust between Norfolk Southern, government and the public.

All the while, “the people living there still have to look and smell and fear,” she added.

In any report generated on this incident, communication needs to be a “key part” of the lessons learned, Capito added.

“I think we just need to get our transparency [on] where this material is going. How long is going to take it to get out? How deep does it have to go? All these questions that people are asking because they want this over. And that’s what you’re trying to do — trying to get it over, and make it safe,” she said.

Senator Bernie Sanders, an independent from Vermont, speaks during a Senate Environment and Public Works Committee hearing in Washington, DC, on Thursday, March 9. 

Vermont independent Sen. Bernie Sanders pressed Norfolk Southern CEO Alan Shaw on health care needs in East Palestine, Ohio, asking if his vow to help the community following the toxic train derailment will include paying for health care costs for residents. 

Shaw did not make a definitive commitment, but said that “everything is on the table.”

“You talked about covering the needs of the people of East Palestine – does that include paying for their health care needs – all of their health care needs?” Sanders asked. 

“We are going to do what’s right,” Shaw replied.

“What’s right is to cover their health care needs. Will you do that?” Sanders responded. “Everything is on the table, sir,” Shaw said in response. 

Sanders also pressed Shaw on the issue of paid sick leave for employees in a tense back-and-forth exchange. 

“You provided paid sick days to some of your employees,” Sanders said, “Will you make that commitment right now to guarantee paid sick days to all of your workers?”

“I share your focus on our employees. I will commit to continuing to discuss with them important quality-of-life issues,” Shaw said in response. 

Sanders replied, “With all due respect you sound like a politician here, Mr. Shaw.” 

“I am not hearing that commitment. Will you make that commitment?” the senator asked again.

“I am committed to continuing to speak to employees about quality-of-life issues that are important to them,” Shaw said, echoing his earlier answer.

Alan Shaw, President and CEO of Norfolk Southern Corporation, testifies before the Senate Environment and Public Works Committee on Capitol Hill on March 9 in Washington, DC. 

Norfolk Southern CEO Alan Shaw has repeatedly stressed that the company spends more than $1 billion a year in safety, but the company has plans to repurchase another $7.5 billion of its shares, on top of the $12.8 billion in share repurchases it has done since 2018. And its CEO declined to say he has any plan to stop those massive purchases.

“Will you pledge to no more stock buybacks until a raft of safety measures have been completed to reduce the risk of derailments and crashes in the future,” asked Sen. Jeff Merkley, an Oregon Democrat, at Thursday’s hearing.

“I will commit to continuing to invest in safety,” Shaw said in response to the question.

Shaw did not detail what was — and what was not — included in Norfolk Southern’s safety plan. But it is still far less than the money being returned to shareholders through either share repurchases or dividend payments.

Correction: An earlier version of this post incorrectly described Norfolk Southern’s safety plan.

Senator from Vermont Bernie Sanders addressing Norfolk Southern CEO Alan Shaw during today's hearing on Capitol Hill.

Sen. Bernie Sanders pointed to a rail industry program called Precision Scheduled Railroading (PSR), and claimed that it helped Norfolk Southern increase its profits and reduce its workforce by almost 40% over six years.

Sanders said workers from Norfolk Southern and other companies told him that they are “being asked to do more work with fewer workers, and that includes safety inspections.”

According to the US Government Accountability Office: PSR is used by six of the seven largest American freight railroads, and is “intended to increase efficiency and reduce costs. While there is no one definition of PSR, stakeholders told us this strategy is associated with fewer staff, longer trains, and more.”

But railroad representatives, employee unions and shippers said told the GAO that PSR, in general, is associated with reductions in staff, longer trains and fewer locomotives to move those trains.

And all seven railroads told the GAO they ran longer trains with the goal of increasing efficiency in 2022.

“So well before this disaster in East Palestine, we have been told about the potential safety hazards. Will you make a commitment right now to the American people that you will lead the industry in ending this disastrous Precision Scheduled Railroading (PSR), which has slashed your workforce and made railroading much less safe?” Sanders asked.

Norfolk Southern CEO Alan Shaw did not confirm or deny Sanders’ claims, and would not specifically answer on the topic of PSR, but he instead said the company has been on a “hiring spree” since he became CEO.

“The number of employees at Norfolk Southern today is 1,500 more than it was this time last year,” he said.

Sanders’ interrupted Shaw in the interest of time and pressed him once more on whether or not he would make the commitment to end the program.

Shaw did not respond with a yes or no. “Senator, in December of last year, I charted a new course in the industry. I said we’re going to move away from a near-term focus solely on profits. And then we’re going to take a longer-term view that’s founded on our engagement with our craft employees who are so critical to our success. We were the first to pivot out of it.”

A Norfolk Southern train passes underneath a bridge on February 25, 2023 in East Palestine, Ohio. 

Norfolk Southern CEO Alan Shaw wouldn’t endorse all provisions of a bipartisan rail safety bill introduced in the wake of the railroad’s derailment in East Palestine, Ohio — although he said he supports “the legislative intent to make railroads safer.”

There are a number or provisions of the bill, including a requirement to have a minimum two-person crews on every locomotive, that the railroad industry is on record opposing. The railroads have pressed its unions to allow the engineers to ride alone in freight locomotives, and have conductors who now ride in locomotives be shifted to pickup trucks driving along the track system. The unions argue that would pose a safety hazard to both crew members and the communities through which trains travel.

Shaw did not address that proposed rule, and follow-up questions did not press him on the issue.

Shaw did say there are “a number of provisions we absolutely would support,” including tighter railroad tank car standards and improved trackside detectors that would alert train crews that axles or bearings are at risk of overheating and causing a derailment.

He defended Norfolk Southern’s safety record, despite a recent decision by the National Transportation Safety Board to start a special investigation into the railroad’s safety culture.

EPA Regional Administrator, Debra Shore, testifies before a US Senate Committee on Environment and Public Works hearing on the environmental and public health threats from the Norfolk Southern February 3 train derailment, on March 9, in Washington, DC.

Debra Shore, the regional administrator of the US Environmental Protection Agency, laid out a plan in front of the Senate Environment and Public Works Committee on how the agency plans to hold Norfolk Southern accountable after its toxic train derailment.

“We’ve used one of EPA’s most powerful enforcement tools to hold Norfolk Southern accountable and to require the company to clean up the mess it made,” she said Thursday, and detailed the “unilateral administrative order” issued by the EPA to Norfolk Southern on Feb. 21:

The EPA is overseeing that Norfolk Southern’s cleanup work is done per the agency’s specifications, she added.

About the company’s finances:  Norfolk Southern can afford to pay a $70,000 a day fine for the next 18 years with the $456 million in cash it had on hand on its books as of December 31. And a year ago, the Norfolk Board announced plans to repurchase $10 billon worth of its stock. As of December 31, it still had $7.5 billion available under that plan to spend on shares.

Alan Shaw, President and CEO of Norfolk Southern Corporation, testifies before the Senate Environment and Public Works Committee on Capitol Hill on March 9, in Washington, DC.

Norfolk Southern CEO Alan Shaw began his Capitol Hill testimony with an apology to the communities hurt by his railroad’s February 3 derailment, and a vow to do the work and spend the money they need to be made whole.

Shaw detailed pledges that the company has made of $21 million in help for East Palestine, and $7.5 million for communities in Pennsylvania. The derailment occurred near the state line between Ohio and Pennsylvania. 

“All of this is just a downpayment,” he said. “We will be in the community for as long as it takes.”

He cited an initial finding from the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) that the train was going below the speed limit for that portion of track and that there is no sign the crew did anything wrong, but he admitted, “it is clear the safety mechanisms in place were not enough.”

The NTSB has announced a special investigation into the safety culture at Norfolk Southern. Shaw defended that culture, saying safety is a priority for the railroad and its front-line staff

“The events of the last month are not who we are as a railroad,” he said.

Norfolk Southern Corporation President and CEO, Alan Shaw, testifies today before a US Senate Committee on Environment and Public Works hearing on the environmental and public health threats from the Norfolk Southern February 3 train derailment.

The Senate Environment and Public Works Committee is now hearing from the second panel.

The hearing is expected to focus on health and safety concerns as well as the timeline of state and federal Environmental Protection Agency response to the incident, according to a source.

Here’s who you will see on the second panel:

Three senators from the affected states were on the first panel — Sens. Sherrod Brown and J.D. Vance of Ohio and Sen. Bob Casey of Pennsylvania.

Senator Robert Casey speaks during a US Senate Committee on Environment and Public Works hearing on the environmental and public health threats from the Norfolk Southern February 3 train derailment, on March 9, in Washington, DC.

Sen. Bob Casey, testifying on the first panel at the Senate Environment and Public Works Committee hearing, said he heard from the farming community that they are calling for testing following the toxic train derailment in East Palestine, Ohio.

He also quoted a farmer in his testimony, who said: “We along with countless other local agriculture producers have years invested in telling our stories and developing relationships with our customers. The stories of working in harmony with nature to produce a superior product. This story was ripped to pieces on the day of the derailment.”

The farmer called for more testing, saying it would help build back trust with their customers, Casey said.

“The economics of our industry is very emotionally driven. Emotions are now being driven by perception and lack of information. We need testing. We need factual information. We needed it yesterday and we are still not receiving that response,” Casey quoted in his testimony.

Casey also called on Congress to pass the bipartisan Railway Safety Act of 2023 that he has proposed along with Republican Sens. J.D. Vance of Ohio, Marco Rubio of Florida and Josh Hawley of Missouri, and Democratic Sens. Sherrod Brown of Ohio and John Fetterman of Pennsylvania.

“It will be a good start by Norfolk Southern to tell us today … that they support the bill,” he said.

An aerial photo shows workers and damaged tank cars in East Palestine, Ohio, on February 18, as cleanup continues in the aftermath of the Norfolk Southern freight train derailment.

In the lead-up to Thursday’s Senate committee hearing on the toxic train derailment that spilled chemicals in the Ohio town of East Palestine last month, a bipartisan group of senators is introducing a new bill aimed at shoring up rail safety.

The Railway Safety Act of 2023 is being introduced by Republican Sens. J.D. Vance of Ohio, Marco Rubio of Florida and Josh Hawley of Missouri, and Democratic Sens. Sherrod Brown of Ohio, and Bob Casey and John Fetterman of Pennsylvania.

Vance, Casey and Brown are among the senators testifying in today’s Senate hearing.

The bill includes a number of provisions to boost safety procedures to prevent future incidents, including “new safety requirements and procedures for trains carrying hazardous materials like vinyl chloride,” a requirement for advance notice from railways to state emergency response officials about what their trains are carrying, requirements to prevent blocked railway crossings and new rules for train size and weight, according to a statement from the senators.

The bill also addresses the risk of wheel bearing failures by ramping up detection and inspection. It has a provision requiring “well-trained, two-person crews aboard every train.” And it boosts the maximum fines for rail carriers for wrongdoing.

The legislation also increases grants for HAZMAT training and Federal Railroad Administration research and development, as well as funding for the Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration’s development of tank car safety features.

Bipartisan challenges: This rare, general bipartisan agreement about taking action in the wake of the derailment follows years of Republicans generally supporting the deregulation of the rail industry, including the broad rollback of transportation rules during the Trump administration.

Experts point out several areas of opportunity to enhance rail safety and hold rail companies further accountable: updating trains’ braking systems, shortening the lengths of freight trains, further separating cars with hazardous material, requiring more crew members to be on board and increasing penalties.

Many of these proposals, experts say, have been around for decades, and have oftentimes been diminished or entirely eliminated after rail lobbying efforts. Data compiled by the nonprofit OpenSecrets show that Norfolk Southern, the company involved in the Ohio derailment, spent $1.8 million on federal lobbying last year.

CNN’s Maegan Vazquez, Pete Muntean and Aileen Graef contributed to this report.

Sen. Tom Carper of Delaware.

Sen. Tom Carper, the chair of the Senate Environment and Public Works Committee, delivered opening remarks at the hearing on the toxic train derailment in East Palestine, Ohio, saying that while Norfolk Southern did commit money to helping the impacted residents, the ultimate costs from the disaster may exceed the immediate cleanup needs.

Norfolk Southern “has agreed to pay for the environmental cleanup resulting from the derailment. However, the ultimate costs may exceed the immediate cleanup needs,” Carper said Thursday.

“And moreover,” he added, citing an “apparent lack of transparency on the part of Norfolk Southern, at least in the early days of the response,” there are still members of the community “battling with mistrust and looking for answers.”

Carper’s comments underline the fears among the East Palestine community about the threat of long term chemical exposure from the toxic train derailment.

Some background: Norfolk Southern has so far committed $21 million to the residents and communities affected by the February 3 toxic chemical release caused by its train derailment in East Palestine. It says this is only the beginning of the help it will pay to victims of the derailment in years to come. 

Three senators are now testifying before the Senate Environment and Public Works Committee about the train that derailed in Ohio at the beginning of February, spilling toxic chemicals in the town of East Palestine.

Here’s who is on the first panel:

East Palestine is near the Pennsylvania border.

In the days after the crash, Brown, Vance, Casey and other lawmakers from both parties introduced the Railway Safety Act of 2023. The bipartisan bill includes a number of provisions to boost safety procedures to prevent future incidents.

It’s rare, though it does happen, for members of Congress to testify at a congressional hearing. The senators may be able to provide insight into what they are hearing from their constituents and communities affected by fallout from the incident.

CNN’s Clare Foran and Chris Isidore contributed reporting to this post. 

A black plume rises over East Palestine, Ohio, as a result of a controlled detonation of a portion of the derailed Norfolk Southern trains, on Feb. 6.

Weeks after a major train derailment and controlled explosion of chemicals in East Palestine, Ohio, many questions remain about how the train derailed and what the lingering chemical exposure could be in residents’ air and water.

Toxic train derailments don’t happen very often, but they can have serious consequences for human and environmental health when they do. 

The agency’s website says railroad accidents that resulted in hazardous materials being released caused just 14 deaths from 1994 to 2005, while 116 deaths resulted from hazardous materials spilling after highway accidents in the same time period.

Still, because trains are crossing state lines, Ohio Gov. Mike DeWine said he was concerned about the lack of information individual states have about what the rail cars are carrying.

During a news conference, DeWine said the Norfolk Southern train that derailed was not categorized as a high hazardous material train, meaning the railroad was not required to notify state officials about what chemicals the rail cars contained.

“If this is true – and I’m told it’s true – this is absurd,” DeWine said. “We should know when we have trains carrying hazardous material that are going through the state of Ohio.”

DeWine urged Congress to consider updating hazard codes for trains so that states have more information.

A worker sits on a container in East Palestine, Ohio, on February 15 at the site where toxic chemicals were spilled following a train derailment.

A Senate panel is holding a hearing now on the East Palestine, Ohio, train derailment as lawmakers on both sides of the aisle call for answers and action in the wake of the disaster.

The most high-profile witness at the Environment and Public Works committee hearing is expected to be Norfolk Southern CEO Alan Shaw, as well as several senators who represent Ohio and Pennsylvania.

Citing the “number and significance of recent Norfolk Southern accidents,” federal investigators said Tuesday they will open a special investigation into the railway’s safety culture.

The company and other major freight railroads have vowed new safety measures in response to the toxic train wreck that ravaged the town of East Palestine. The railroads saythey will revamp a hot bearing detector network. “Hot bearing” or “hot box” detectors use infrared sensors to record the temperatures of railroad bearings as trains pass by.

While Norfolk Southern has pledged more than $21 million so far in help for the communities affected by the derailment, that is only a small fraction of its profits and the billions it is giving to shareholders through dividends and share repurchases. Shaw is likely to face questions about the company’s continued share repurchase plans in the wake of the disaster, questions that he dodged at a recent CNN Town Hall on the crash.

The hearing will also feature several senators as witnesses: Ohio Sens. Sherrod Brown, a Democrat, and J.D. Vance, a Republican, and Pennsylvania Sen. Bob Casey, a Democrat.

In the wake of the East Palestine crash, a bipartisan group of senators proposed a new billaimed at shoring up rail safety, The Railway Safety Act of 2023. Outside of a number of provisions to boost safety procedures to prevent future incidents, the legislation would also require two person crews on most long-distance freight trains. There are no such regulations or laws requiring two people on the train currently, only provisions of existing labor agreements with the unions representing crew members. The railroads say they will oppose that change in the law and that they will continue to push to have only the engineer, and not a conductor, riding in the cab of locomotives.

CNN’s Ali Zaslav, Gregory Wallace, Betsy Klein, Lauren Fox and Nouran Salahieh​​ contributed to this report.

Ohio Governor Mike DeWine, flanked by other local, state and national leaders, addresses the press on February 21.

On Wednesday, FEMA approved Ohio Gov. Mike DeWine’s request for a 120-day extension to ask for a major disaster declaration for the state.

In his letter to FEMA, DeWine cited the “continuing impacts and complexities” of the East Palestine derailment, saying the 120-day extension would allow the state to properly assess the impact of the incident before requesting the declaration.